Last week I posted an interesting way to deal with peace activists. As I always do, I promised to link to the original if I found it. Thanks to someone who commented on Toren Smith's site, here is where it came from.
Sven commented on my original post and also took the time to send me an e-mail very courteously disagreeing with me. I am gonna post his argument along with my argument. Because he is sincere in his beliefs and he is not French, I will clean up his grammar and spelling. I did not offer Pierre the same courtesy (and I will be revisiting Pierre shortly) because I have found the French to be total assholes when it comes to people trying to speak their language. It may come as a surprise to Pierre, but I have been in about 28 different countries. In almost every country I have visited, I have tried to learn a little of the native language. The only country where I have ever been ridiculed was in France. In every other country, the people appreciated my attempts to speak their language and went out of their way to help me. Not so in France.
Sven wrote:
Hi,
First of all I am not mailing to pick a fight but since I am as left as you are right we are bound to have some other views. I do respect anybody who says what he/she really means but I would like to point out a fault in your thinking .
I have added my comments in the original text .
Following is my original post:
1. Listen politely while this person explains their views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look very interested in their ideas. They will tell you how revenge is immoral, and that by attacking the people who did this to us, we will only bring on more violence. They will probably use many arguments, ranging from political to religious to humanitarian.
2. In the middle of their remarks, without any warning, punch them in the nose.
3. When the person gets up off of the ground, they will be very angry and they may try to hit you, so be careful.
4. Very quickly and calmly remind the person that violence only brings about more violence and remind them of their stand on this matter. Tell them if they are really committed to a nonviolent approach to undeserved attacks, they will turn the other cheek and negotiate a solution. Tell them they must lead by example if they really believe what they are saying.
5. Most of them will think for a moment and then agree that you are correct.
Sven: I call the police (U.N) and have you arrested for assault . I have witnesses and I will have my day in court. You will get free and come back.
GOC: OK here is the problem. We called the police (UN). Unfortunately, the police were corrupt. Where were the police (UN) when the Iranians, in violation of international law, illegally took 52 American diplomats and held them hostage for 444 days? Where were the police (UN) when genocide was going on in Rwanda? Where were the police (UN) when ethnic cleansing was going on, in full sight of the UN peacekeeping forces in Kosovo? It was NATO who put a stop to that. If the police (UN) did their job, we wouldn't have to.
6. As soon as they do that, hit them again. Only this time hit them much harder. Square in the nose.
Sven: Once again I have you arrested and ask a court order to keep you out of my business
GOC: Now you have to assume that the court has the power to enforce its rulings. To end Gulf War I, Saddam Hussein agreed to disarm. He did not. He jacked the UN weapons inspectors around and eventually, in 1998, threw them out of the country. The court (UN) did nothing. As long as the police (UN) and the court (UN) does nothing, I can punch you in the nose as much as I want.
7. Repeat steps 2-5 until the desired results are obtained and the idiot realizes how stupid of an argument he/she is making.
Sven: Repeat until you are behind bars after the majority of the people have decided you are a real danger and things should be done to stop you.
GOC: Or, if you are Saddam Hussein, and you realize just how useless the police (UN) and the courts (UN) are, and what a wimp Bill Clinton is, and how the majority of the world hates the United States because of our wealth, freedom, and success, you know that as long as you pay off the French, Chinese, Germans, and Russians you can get away with murder. In effect, you've paid off the police and the judges.
8. There is no difference in an individual attacking an unsuspecting victim or a group of terrorists attacking a nation of people. It is unacceptable and must be dealt with. Perhaps at a high cost.
Sven: I had a few hits in the face and a few days in court but I kept my beliefs and the problem was solved. Futhermore every peace basher has seen that violence doesn’t solve anything (Sven, I am afraid you are sadly mistaken there) ( there is always somebody stronger or with more friends).
We owe our military a huge debt for what they are about to do for us and our children. We must support them
Sven: totally agree
and our leaders at times like these. We have no choice. We either strike back, VERY HARD, or we will keep getting hit in the nose.
Sven: The harder you hit them, the harder they will try to hit you. Give them something to live for instead of making them so desperate that they are willing to give up their lives for any cause. Lead by example
Sven, we were attacked on 9/11. I read that when Osama bin Laden saw us leave Somalia with our tails tucked between our legs, that's when he thought that we could be beaten. We had embassies blown up. We did nothing. We had the first WTC bombing. We did nothing. We had the USS Cole. We did nothing. Radical Islam, which has declared war on us does not respect restraint (which it interprets as weakness), diplomacy (ditto), international law, or the United Nations. It only respects one thing and one thing only: strength. You don't wish problems away. You don't hope that by doing nothing that people will leave you alone. If they fuck with you, you make them pay and you make them pay big time.
We fought a bloody war with Germany and Japan and after the war, we rebuilt their countries. What we did after WWII was totally unprecedented in the history of the world. No other country in the history of this planet has ever been as powerful yet as benevolent as the United States.
The United States saved Europe three times in the 20th Century: WWI, WWII, and WWIII (the Cold War). Now, we are doing it again. It would be nice to have a little help.
Lesson over, class dismissed.
And, have you seen the French Army Knife?
Posted by denny at April 1, 2003 09:20 PMThe premise of his argument, as you noted, is fundamentally flawed. He believes the UN is capable and willing to do good (e.g., arrest you for punching him). It is morally neutral (objectively morally negative) and thus won't lift a finger because it is incapable of differentiating right from wrong (e.g., you have to understand the "root causes"). Kind of works out that way when you treat dictatorships and democracies as equals.
Posted by: addison on April 1, 2003 10:47 PMSven claims that by calling the police (UN), he (the pacifist) is maintaining his beliefs.
That is false.
War is violence done by the government.
Police use violence to apprehend, incarcerate, and punish people. Without the ability to do violence, police are helpless.
By calling the police (UN), Sven is merely moving the overt act of violence from himself to another. But the violence that occurs is still done at his behest.
Another scenario:
You are a school teacher, and a pacifist. One of your students is bullying the other students. How do you control the bully without using violence? Any physical touching is considered an assault. You can send the student to the principal, you can call the police. But no one can physically restrain the bully. What will you do if the bully realizes that you can't/won't physically stop him? So you think you have a solution. What is to prevent the bully from circumventing your solution by engaging in worse behaviour? (i.e. stealing what he needs to survive)
Posted by: Byna on April 1, 2003 11:42 PMSven, we are trying to give them something to live for. Iraq is the best bet for democracy to percolate, don't you see that?
Besides, if it works, what do you think the citizens of their neighbors are going to want?
And frankly, until we break this islamofascist death grip, we're going to be in danger.
We know we're going to get hit again. And maybe it will be enough for the civilians in America to get serious.
Iraq is not serious. When we get serious, the enemy will die. And we won't care about archeological sites or mosques.
We appreciate you coming over to visit. Have you checked The Rottweiler's site? Misha has an interesting background. European, as he said, got redder and redder as he got older, then a teacher told him to start finding out about the other side's arguments.
He now lives in Texas, a proud American and a gun-owner.
Posted by: Sandy P. on April 3, 2003 03:00 AMAddison, as usual, is correct. Dammit, he needs to start his own blog.
Byna, you are correct. Let's say you are in your home and there is an armed man threatening your family. Are you gonna dial 911 and wait for the cops or, get your gun and blow the MF away? It's funny that here in the United States, the states with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest incidence of gun related crimes.
Sandy, Exactly. I hope someday to go to Dallas and meet Kim, Connie, Rachel, Misha, and Jenny.
Posted by: Denny Wilson on April 3, 2003 08:30 PM