Just when I think we are getting though to young Matthew he posts sumpin' like this:
look at it as follows: some people are rich, while others are poor - how is this fair when they work the same amount? Some people work bloody hard mining, cleaning etc while others earn lots by doing relatively little. This is all down to luck, and to say that it is down to hard work I view as an attempt to justify your desire to keep your money to yourself. This is selfish, and an attemp to shut out the world so you can keep your conscience clean while others starve.
This really reminds me of sumpin' little Dickie Gephardt said about people who are not winners in life's lottery. The difference in people who do very little and people who have to work hard for the same amount of money is not luck. Pumpman's father was a coal miner. Pumpman was the first one in his family to get a college education. It was not luck. Luck had nothing to do with it. He worked hard and put himself through college.
Matthew has had bad luck. He was born with Cerebral Palsy and unfortunately he was in the UK so he wasn't able to have Baby Face sue everyone involved with his birth. Yeah, that was bad luck, but life isn't fair and it is not the gummint's function to make it fair. The gummint can pass laws to give the people equal opportunity and equal access. We have the ADA here in the United States to make buildings and transportation accessable to people with disabilities. I have not found any country more accessable than the United States. We also forbid discrimination of people with disabilities.
Caution! Boring story follows.
I was born in 1946 in St. Louis and I grew up in a suburb called Webster Groves. I am at the leading edge of the Baby Boomers who are gonna bankrupt the Social Security system. My family was lower middle class. My father's drinking problem got worse in the middle 50's and that is when my mother had to go to work to help support the family. Bad luck! I was poorer than my friends.
My sister studied hard and made good grades. She was lucky that she was smart, but she also used those smarts. I didn't. I was an average student. I did well in Math, History, and English. I flunked Physics. (In college I got A's in Physics because I had the math to understand it. You gotta have calculus to understand Physics.)
Both my sister and I started working at an early age. She babysat. I mowed lawns, raked leaves, shoveled snow, and worked in the school cafeteria. I guess I was lucky that there were people in my neighborhood who wanted yardwork done. I was lucky to live across the street from a lady who worked for the school system in the cafeteria and she got me that job.
I guess my sister was lucky that she won a four year scholarship to Washington University in St. Louis. It had nothing to do with her straight A's all through school, the honors classes that she took, or her high scores on the National Merit Test and the SAT. Nope. The hard work didn't matter. It was all luck.
I didn't win a scholarship. I had to attend junior college and I promptly flunked out. This was bad luck. It had nothing to do with me not being ready for college. More bad luck followed. My mother welcomed me to the real world by telling me I had better get a job 'cause I was gonna have to start paying room and board. My father told me I would also have to start paying my own car insurance. This was real bad luck! None of this stuff was my fault.
I got a job working in the mailroom of an insurance company. This was entry level. I was paid 10 cents an hour above minimum wage. Most of the other people in the mailroom were also unlucky. They had decided not to go to college and to work this deadend job and maybe eventually become a supervisor. There wasn't much of a future.
More bad luck was to follow. My draft status was now 1A. I was almost certain to get drafted so I decided to join the Navy. I was lucky and did well on the aptitude tests and was guaranteed an electronics school. Yep! It was all due to luck.
After boot camp I attended electronics school at Great Lakes Naval Training Center in North Chicago. I did very well in school. My average was very high.
It was all due to luck. It had nothing to do with my studying real hard.
I related in another post how much fun I had tracking down my first ship. My specialty was communications, but since I had become an inquisitive fellow, I learned how to repair the radar gear. This was also a stroke of good luck because in the last year of service when I was on the Iredell County, I was the only ET who could fix anything. The other ET, who outranked me couldn't. It's amazing all of the stuff you can get away with when you are the only person who possesses a critical skill. For the rest of my working career I was gonna somehow have the good luck to be in this position. It would have nothing to do with me deciding to learn things on my own and take advantage of opportunities. It would all be luck.
When I got out of the Navy I attended college on the GI Bill. I stayed at home and paid room and board to my mother. I attended the junior college and this time I was lucky. I made mostly A's and a few B's. It had nothing to do with me studying. It was all luck.
I also had a part time job delivering flowers. Once again I was lucky. We had four routes: north, south, west, and around the park (Forest Park for those who know anything about St. Louis). I was the only driver who could run all the routes. It had nothing to do with me learning the city and the fastest ways to get around. It was all luck. Because I was so lucky to have learned the city so well the owner of the flower shop allowed me to fit my work around my school schedule.
On weekends I delivered Where Magazine. It's a magazine delivered to hotels every week that would tell visitors what was going on. I was lucky to get this job. Actually I was. A friend of mine got the job managing the Where office in St. Louis and when the previous person quit, he offered me the job.
I also stayed active in the Naval Reserve and got paid for attending a meeting every Wednesday night. It was pure luck that I had been in the Navy so I was able to stay active in the Reserve.
My first car when I got out of the Navy was a piece of crap. I was lucky. Since I couldn't pay anyone to fix my car I had to do it myself. Wasn't that luck? I had a lemon and that taught me how to work on cars. I was to continue doing all my routine maintenance until my accident.
I burned out in my junior year of college. I was able to continue my job at the flower shop full time while I looked for a job. I was lucky that I was the best driver. That allowed me to continue working until I found a better job.
In 1973, I was hired by TCIDNN (The Company I Dare Not Name). It was pure luck that I got hired. It had nothing to do with me scoring high on the aptitude tests. I had been looking for work for seven months and every company had a similar aptitude test. I got lucky. I asked every company that administered the tests to go over my wrong answers with me. By the time I took the TCIDNN test I had seen most of the questions so I scored very high. Sure was lucky I had reviewed all those previous tests. It was all luck.
In 1988 I experienced some real bad luck. I fell out a tree and broke my back leaving me partially paralyzed from the waist down. The accident had nothing to do with me doing sumpin' stupid. Nope it was all bad luck. Not my fault. Bad luck.
But I was lucky. I got enough return that I was able to walk again with braces and crutches. It took me a long time. It had nothing to do with me working my ass off. It had nothing to do with me measuring my driveway and seeing how many times up and down the driveway I had to walk to walk a mile. It had nothing to do with me walking up and down my driveway to walk a mile every day. Nope. It was all luck that I was able to walk again.
When I went back to work, we were experiencing problems with our system support staff. My group needed more programming work done and the people who were supposed to provide it would not give us what we wanted. I saw an opportunity. I taught myself how to be a systems programmer. It had nothing to do with me working 12 hour days and some weekends. It was all pure dumb luck.
Another reason I worked my butt off was I didn't want anyone to say that the only reason I had a job was because I was a cripple. I outworked my peers. I got good raises and awards every year. It had nothing to do with my performance. It was all luck.
All through my working life I have always saved money. When I was out at sea I sent money home to be invested. After I was hired by TCIDNN I took advantage of every savings program offered. As a result, I am now a very wealthy person. I live in a house twice the size of the house I grew up in. My sister's house is just like mine, only bigger. (Inside joke) I own two BMW's and a pickup truck.
All of this is totally due to good luck. I didn't have to work at anything. Everything just fell into my lap. I had choices to make along the way and I guess I'm just lucky that I made a lot of the right choices. It had nothing to do with hard work and planning. It was all luck.
I was lucky to survive all the downsizing. I guess I was lucky that I had taught myself critical skills that TCIDNN needed. Once again, I was the only person in my group who possessed those critical skills. Pure dumb luck.
My sister and her husband are the same way. He was the first person in his family to attend college. They are wealthier than I am and you know why? They're luckier than I am. It had nothing to do with them getting an education and working hard at their jobs. It was all luck.
My story is not the exception. Anyone in this country, if he/she has average intelligence and is willing to get an education and work hard can make it in this country. The dirty little secret that the liberals/socialists in this country don't want the losers to know is that many of the people who are now in the top 20% of inccome level started out int the bottom 20%.
Look at Baby Face. His father was a millworker and now he is a millionaire lawyer who is responsible for driving many doctors out of business and driving up the cost of health care. He made it by suing doctors who didn't perform C-sections on women who delivered babies with Cerebral Palsy. Had Matthew's parents lived in the United States they could have had Baby Face sue and they would probably be millionaires.
As for the taxes. I realize taxes are a necessary evil, but we are overtaxed. Our gummint is too large. The Great Fucking Society was/is a disaster. It turned 40 years old last Friday. With all the trillions that we have thrown at poverty, it still exists. I have said it many times. 90% of the poor are poor because they made poor choices. The two most egregious ones are dropping out of school and having children they cannot afford.
I do not mind helping out people who have had genuine bad luck like accidents or disease. I resent having my money seized from me to support people who are irresponsible. I do not like supporting welfare brood mares.
This is the land of opportunity. I know many people like me who started out with nothing and are now doing very well. I guess they were just lucky also.
Oh and as to feeding starving people, the United States doles out huge amounts of foreign aid. We were gonna give a bunch of grain to an African nation, but it was the EU who put a stop to that because the grain was genetically modified.
How is your conscience about that, Matthew? Don't lecture the United States about helping out starving nations. And why should we give money to nations that hate us? Why should we give money to the United Nations where the majority of the countries hate us?
Is it our fault that failing nations are so unlucky to be ruled by incompetent gummints where the officials steal the money we give them as aid? Look at Zimbabwe. Because it is now a country embracing Matthew's beloved socialism it has gone from a net exporter of food to a net importer of food. Ooops! More bad luck. Has nothing to do with an incompetent gummint.
Yep! It's all due to luck. Luck, that's the ticket!
Posted by denny at August 22, 2004 08:07 PMWell, here's to luck. May it shine on me, too. (kidding)
Posted by: addison on August 22, 2004 10:43 PMLuck is opportunity that meets with hard work.
Posted by: Da Goddess on August 22, 2004 10:59 PMAddison - Your condition is only temporary. I have confidence that you will get over it. You're intelligent and you have determination. Geez! You're smarter than my sister and she's one of the smartest people I know. She got the brains in our family. I got the bullshit capability.
Posted by: Denny Wilson on August 22, 2004 11:05 PMI learned a long time ago that the harder I worked, the "luckier" I got.
Posted by: Acidman on August 22, 2004 11:47 PMYour story similar to mine, Denny. Both of my parents were dropouts and alcoholics as well. I learned to read by age 3.5. The librarian in the small town in which I was born tested me herself before would let me get a library card. I was lucky. had nothing to do with my mother's value on self-education nor the fact that she quit drinking just before she had me. By age 7, I was the product of divorce. Dad still drank and tore the house up and wrecked one car a year (every year) and mom was tired of it and the Friday night fights. dad was tired of having a wife who was paralysed from the waist down and preferred his lover. By age 11, I was being raised on welfare. By age 18, I said goodbye to welfare and headed off on my own. With just a backpack and a pack of dreams and brains, set out to take on the world. I didn't want to take 'handouts' to do college, so I didn't. I took some courses as I could afford them. I fell in love and got married, college slipped away, while I founded a business and worked two to three other jobs. stress overcame me and my marriage fell apart by age 23. I put my marriage back together, put all other dreams on hold, and joined the Navy. Just shithouse luck that I scored high enough to pretty much name my Navy career path, had nothing to do with all the reading I had done in my life. NO. Not THAT! I graduated top of my class from F.C. training and got my pick of 'C' schools. It truly was a bit of bad luck that I crossed paths with a Hispanic Chief that had it in for the type of student who didn't have to struggle as hard as he had to to get the grades. He sat on me like shit on a pig. I ended up being foreward deployed and fought in Persian Gulf War 1. I came home with PTSD and a marriage on the rocks again. She took off with her lover about the same time as I broke an arm so badly that doctors wanted to amputate. I fought for that arm and kept it. I ended up attrified to the left which contributed to the next accident that I had as a factory worker. I broke my neck. Three years of rehab and two years of light labor later, I was back to normal almost. Just lucky, I guess. Didn't have a thing to do with hard work and determination. I made it through times of homelessness during that time. But, I never gave up. Just lucky for me that I thought that way. It had nothing to do with the fact that I had read the life stories of nearly all the successful people in America while I was a kid. NAAAAHHH! I kept my spirits up by helping others. I worked my light labor at a youth center helping gang related youth get into the mainstream. I taught the ethics and computer skills. After that, I started back to college. I am lucky to get high marks. It's not because i learned good study habits while in the Navy and going to some of the hardest courses they had to offer and being class leader all the way through. It had nothing to do with staying up studying til 2 or 3 in the morning after classes and working til 10 at night. I then transferred to the university from the community college. I lived in the dorms, worked in research, and got high marks again. Just luck, not work at all. Now, at 44, I have have found a woman to love again and I have have worked my way to a private university. I will get my Master's and start a career as a teacher. Sure hope my luck follows me!
Posted by: The Moose on August 22, 2004 11:58 PMI'm a year older than you Denny
Left home when I was 17 havent taken anything from anyone since then
I didn't earn.7 years in the Army learned Eltronics in the Army,put my self through Collage,left to go to work for the FAA 12 hours short of a degree.left there after 3 1/2 years got into sales.did well and still do well could retire today.Own rent houses,Farm,cars have had Airplanes,big boats ect. lived good worked hard
Lucky guy huh?
Had no children
Got some education
Worked hard.
Didnt spend everything I made
Won life's Lottery.
I started with nothing - hell, my folks had me stealing coal when I was around 5 or 6 - then I worked my butt off and made something. The fates conspired to take it all back, but the money can't replace the people in my life.
Now - which would you rather have? The money, or the love??
Posted by: GOC in Winston Salem on August 23, 2004 05:25 AMI'm not denying that you worked hard to get where you are. I'm going to university tthis autumn, and I worked bloody hard for that (especially given my education at the cripple-school). my parents work hard too. my brother worked hard to get his degree from oxford when he was my age.
thus what you say is perfectly true, yet not true, and I can't explain it. there were guys at school who no matter how hard they tried couldnt get anyware: walk talk or eat.
as a favour, can you keep away from talking about my birth. its a delicate subject.
Posted by: matthew g on August 23, 2004 06:08 AMMattew, read Da Goddess's comment again. I would only change it slightly: Luck is preparedness meeting opportunity.
You can work your ass off and still not be prepared. Opportunities are out there if you look for them and not wait for them to fall in your lap (they usually don't).
People who whine about "winning life's lottery" are usually more interested in equal outcome than they are in equal opportunity. Equal outcome typically yields results of the lowest common denominator rather than the best and the brightest.
I would love to hear an interviewer confront little Dickie Gephart with the question, "Would you say that since your Dad was a milkman and you're a Congressman it's because you won life's lottery rather than any effort you put into it?"
Posted by: Ralph Gizzip on August 23, 2004 07:27 AMBut - but you are being unfair to those poor people who are not lucky enough to be ambitious.
Posted by: Walter Wallis on August 23, 2004 08:35 AMLife is a choice.
Love is a choice.
Attitude is a choice.
If you make all your choices with a coin toss, you can blame luck for everything. Everyone I have ever met exercises their wills and not their coin toss.
Experience is not so much what you go through in life, but how you react to it.
Attitude is paramount.
Posted by: The Moose on August 23, 2004 08:55 AMI concider luck going to the Indian Casino and winning 10 bucks. At least they have a good buffet.
Posted by: Greg DiCroce on August 23, 2004 12:20 PM"thus what you say is perfectly true, yet not true, and I can't explain it. there were guys at school who no matter how hard they tried couldnt get anyware" - matthew
Problem is, while both conservatives and liberals want a bit of fairness out of life, there's an inescapable difference in approaches, Matthew:
Conservatives and libertarians want fairness of Opportunity, and the results are up to the individual.
Liberals want fairness of results, and the responsibility for providing the results is on society regardless of individual talent and opportunity.
The two philosohpies are diametrically opposed. And reality provides neither fairness of opportunity nor fairness of result: that's not within the purview of society to change - that's just the way the universe works. The conservative accepts that reality as a given, and works for change that's actually capable of being accomplished and means tested within that stricture, rather than trying to force reality to fit an arbitrary "Ideal".
What Denny is describing is taking advantage of opportunity and accepting personal responsibility for the results. And accepting that when the Universe doesn't give a fuck, it does no good to get pissed, because she's being as friendly as she ever gets. ;]
Speaking from experience, sometimes life just bites, and fairness doesn't enter into the picture.
What has to be looked at and asked is: is the end result of trying to have Government make it fair going to create more ills than it cures?
History tells an objective observer that that's the invariable result: government always creates more harm than it cures just by being involved. If your history books aren't demonstrating that for you, then maybe you need to step outside of gumint schooling and look for better texts.
Posted by: Ironbear on August 23, 2004 02:18 PMYou gotta have calculus to understand PhysicsPerhaps the understatement of the year. You run into Maxwell's Equations, Gaussian field equations (those lovely integrals over a closed surface), and the like, and not know Calculus? May as well pack up and go home. Posted by: addison on August 23, 2004 07:46 PM
"...You gotta have calculus to understand Physics..."
HUH?
Where did I miss that?
The Moose,
Sure, you can do some of the equations but you cannot--cannot--do justice to the following without calculus:
And this was from flipping fairly quickly through my college physics book. I miss electricity problems...
Posted by: addison on August 24, 2004 01:56 AMWell said.
Posted by: Michelle on August 24, 2004 07:48 AMHeh. Don't forget, Denny, it's shameful of you to have succeeded where others did not, because that's a sinful posturing that pretends you might somehow deserve rewards for your hard work.
Don't know or care if that's part of matthew g's position, but that's the default Leftist position.
Posted by: Dave on August 24, 2004 02:48 PM"The two philosohpies are diametrically opposed. And reality provides neither fairness of opportunity nor fairness of result: that's not within the purview of society to change - that's just the way the universe works. The conservative accepts that reality as a given, and works for change that's actually capable of being accomplished and means tested within that stricture, rather than trying to force reality to fit an arbitrary "Ideal".
What Denny is describing is taking advantage of opportunity and accepting personal responsibility for the results. And accepting that when the Universe doesn't give a fuck, it does no good to get pissed, because she's being as friendly as she ever gets. ;]"
God doesn't give a damn, but we should. I feel trapped.
The universe is not God, Matthew. This is one of the places where theists like me definitely agree with atheists like Denny. (The contrary position is pantheism, which is a very natural and human thing to believe in, but has a nasty tendency to disintegrate when subjected to the least bit of logical analysis.) If you want someone to care, the universe is the wrong place to look. And if you want an excuse for not caring, God (whether God exists or not) is the wrong place to look for that.
Posted by: Jay Random on August 26, 2004 02:42 PMDon't know if anyone is familiar with Gianna Jessen but she was aborted in 1977 and survived. Because of the abortion Gianna has cerebral palsey. She has testified before Congress and is one of the most beautiful people I have ever seen.
I am ashamed to even drag out my story because not only did Gianna become a person worth knowing but all of you as well. I completely reject, therefore, the foolish dependence people place on government to 'give' their lives meaning.
Posted by: maizie on August 29, 2004 10:31 AM