Here are some fellows who are none to pleased with Kerry.

A broken tooth kept me away from the TV. God works in mysterious ways.

You know what's so amazing is that these people rant and rave about evil corrupt corporate capitalism opprsesing the mass of working poeple and yet will bend themselves into pretzels to justify the mountains of bodies their comrades generate.

No thanks, I'll take "corrupt capitalism" and a new SUV everytime.

What offended me even more than the testimony, was thephone calls afterward. Several people claiming that this should be run by the networks, that this testimony only strengthened their desire to vote for Kerry! Pathetic

Remember what Will Rogers said (I'm doing this from memory, people, so here goes): I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat.

It figures.

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

I watched the entire vile thing including the questions posed by the senators. I'm only 44 so I did not serve in Nam. How any nam vet could vote for this traitor is beyond me. How any vet could vote for this vile excuse for a human is beyond me. Now I know why the nam vets I work with hate this man so much. Now I know my my dad (a Korean war era vet) hates him. Now I know why Europe loves him.
I wonder how much it would cost to take an add out in the NY Slimes or La Slimes and ask in the add if Kerry is able to sleep due to his directly contributing to the torture of Americans and the killing of Lord knows how many innocents throughout southeast Asia after we pulled out? I'll throw in $100. Would any of these liberal rags run such an add if we paid for it?

No thanks. I saw enough clips from it in the late late 70's to be able to fill in the rest from the excerpts. "Piss poor excuse for a human being" was what a 'Nam vet friend of mine called Kerry.

Everyone's been waiting for that testimony to get more public attention. That's why it was such a surprise when the sad hollow tree made his 4 months in country the centerpiece of his nominating convention - he just drew more attention to it. Although I guess soon we'll hear - "Isn't it time we put Vietnam behind us, and not open up old wounds?" sorta like they did when the draft dodger was running in 92.

And this is the best guy the dems have to offer? What a disgrace.

Somewhere Bill and Hilary are sitting (probably not together) happy that his campaign is such a fuckup so she gets positioned for 2008. God help us.

Addison,

Cool link. It would be nice if the producers could get their documentary clips aired in the lamestream media.

Oh, my. That should be "...none too pleased...". Geesh. I blame sleepiness.

The documentary is supposed to come out around Labor Day and will probably be touted by enough talk radio and Internet sites that it will--like the Swiftboat Veterans--get to people without the help of the mainstream media.

Can you imagine Dan Rather or Tom Brokaw or Peter Jennings coming anywhere close to airing pieces of a documentary by men who were tortured and said the current Democrat Presidential candidate's testimony was used against them to break them? Ain't gonna happen. This would be exponentially more damning than the Swiftboat Veteran issue.

It would end Kerry's candidacy in a New York minute if one of the main three ever aired this and provided the context of why the men made the documentary. Again, ain't gonna happen.

addison:

Don't be too sure.

Personally, I'll still bet a jar of my Not-Yet-Famous Sugar Free, But You Can't Tell Olde-Style Mustard-Based BBQ sauce that coming in the next month or two is..... "The Torricelli Option 2004". Starring William Jefferson "Is? or Is?" Clinton. Hillary Rodham "These aren't the billing records you're looking for, you can go about your business" Clinton. Albert "No Controlling Legal Authority, and I Was Out Of The Room When That Illegal Shit Went Down" Gore. John Forbes "Seared" Kerry. John Forbes "Reporting for Duty" Kerry. Introducing James Carville as Cujo. (Uncredited, Chris Matthews as rabid attack dog)

Maybe I'm wrong, if the reported call to the Swift Vet Sunday happened, Kerry is *really* *that* *clueless* (and what does that say for our Senate?) - but as the day approaches, and it looks more and more like Kerry will be Cartered in the polls, if not Dukakiazed (like Cartering, but much more painful), and add to that that Ms. Clinton would face similar problems over a long primary and campaign run... But on a short run... Without time to get ads and prep.... I think the Democrat machine will do their best to jettison him.

That's my prediction.

(And by Democrat machine, I of course include the MSM)

(other) Addison. Sure... it looks like Dukkakis all over again. Then why is the latest state by state Zogby poll show Kerry ahead in the electoral college?

It is my understanding that Dukakis had the lead on George, Sr. throughout 1988 until the time of the conventions, which would be right about now.

However, I think this race is gonna be tight.

Without death or grave illness, I assume it would be an egregious violation of federal election law to change the Presidential candidate after being nominated by their respective party.

The Torricelli option works in New Jersey because, well, it's New Jersey and they seem not to care about laws. On a national level, however, that will not work.

Easy on NJ pal!

addison:

Maybe. Maybe not. See, that's the crux of the matter.

Think about what this election is going to be like - the "new improved" electronic machines that so far don't work, the charges and counter charges.

And that's presuming it's Kerry v Bush.

We might as well stop voting and just hold the "election" in the courtroom. Well, I'm being cynical. But I's sure that there will be a slew of lawsuits that will make 2000 look like a slow day at the courthouse.

So, since the plan is to (even if the Democrat's aren't admitting it yet) sue to win - so what? Eh, somebody's got to be the Democratic contender, right? Where in the constitution is 'party' mentioned? So, it's not a constitutional issue.. so run Hillary, (because Kerry's bowed out and thrown support her way), and either she wins, or... Loses, because the courts didn't "support" her, thus Bush "never won a real election" "Republicans stole 2! Elections! In! A Row!"... Thus having a heck of a plank for '08.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_133.html

Slightly old, but of some interest... Since _technically_ the election is for _electors_ and they then cast votes for their party's candidate...

A link of the above, for those still running Windows (I'm running X Windows, so I forget most people can't cut and paste with 2 mouse clicks. :) )

You can read his whole testimony at
http://www.c-span.org/2004vote/jkerrytestimony.asp

Yes, but that deals with a President-elect, not simply a candidate prior to the vote.

Well, three mouse clicks is not that bad. One to select the link, one to copy, one to paste.

Zogby polls mean nothing. I prefer the more scientific method of picking a winner through Halloween mask sales.
Who's gonna win?

Why can't Kerry apologize for this? It's ridiculous. His apologists are saying that he was just QUOTING other people in the group (wow, that makes it so much better) or that it was actually courageous, because it encouraged an end to what they think was a mistake. This is lame too, it's fine to be opposed to a war but you don't lie and exaggerate to end it. And people wonder why these swift guys are pissed at him. Forget however accurate their claims about his medals are, they should've aired the anti-war John Kerry ad first.

This reminds me of liberals admitting that (gasp!) Michael Moore has a tendency to lie about and distort things, but still PRAISING his movie. Kerry needs to be pressed on this issue.

Hi All,

This is my first full-fledged post since I found this blog.

I served in Vietnam as a draftee who eventually became a Shake 'N Bake. Alot of you seem to be Navy, so I don't expect you to know what a Shake'N Bake is or was. I would suggest Googling.

Anyway, I was a SGT E5 after 8 months service in the Army.

After I came home in Dec 1970, I was thoroughly disallusioned about the war. I'll tell you why.

After all our officers were killed, wounded, or DEROSED, we had none left. We got sent to The Hill, LZ Stinson, in order to refit and wait for a new CO.

After a week, we got a Cherry Second Lieutenant, for our CO. We got sent out on a mission with this guy as our CO. He was our only officer. Not even an officer for an FO (Forward Observer).

We got fucked over in Vietnam, by a bunch of ticket punching assholes.

That's why I didn't give a fuck about Kerry and the VVAW in 1971, and what the fuck they said about the war. I remember Kerry well in 1971.

Denny and the rest of you guys: I think you are good guys.

Atrocities happened in Vietnam. It was our ignorance of history that caused us to believe atrocities were specific ONLY to US soldiers in Vietnam.

I'm a combat decorated veteran who would willingly submit my bona fides to Denny for verification in the pursuit of honest dialogue.

I'm not anywhere near packing it in, so don't get me wrong.

TD

Thanks for your service.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts.

"...ticket punching assholes..."

Thats exactly what I've always thought of Kerry, who described himself to his men as "the next JFK from Mass.", as in Kennedy, as in PT109, as in come here, get some medals and get the hell out so I can be Pres.

Political opportunist then (took his 3 PHs 'on the cheap' to get his ticket punched and return without a full tour), and in '71 when he joined the anti war group to get their votes too. From day 1 aiming for the best political resume.

Dont get me wrong - I have nothin against amibition - but, it seems all the crap he did was window dressing for a campaign, and that alone, going back to '68.

Dan,

The ticket punchers I'm referring to were the guys who sent young, inexperienced officers and NCOs out to the field to lead men in combat.

If you read the book, "We Were Soldiers Once, And Young", many of the NCOs who had fought in the Ia Drang has also served in WWII and Korea. In 1970, when I fought in Vietnam, it was not the case. Many who were on their second or third tour did not want to serve in the field. It was that way in the unit I served in. Alot of guys had already subscribed to the notion that they "did not want to be the last one to die for a mistake".

We had a Major (the Battalion XO) who gave clearance for artillery support. According to the ROE, if the target was within 1000 meters of a ville, we would not receive support. One time when he was visiting our company and we took slight sniper fire, his initial reaction was to call in arty. We were standing in the middle of a ville and the sniper fire was probably 200 meters from us. Do the math.

Was Kerry getting his ticket punched? Sure looks like it to me. Then again, so were alot of other guys.

Viet Nam was a clusterfuck war that the politicians would not let us win. But, we were at war. We should have decided to fight or bug out. I understand your disillusionment. I was disillusioned also. I think it was a war we should have fought and a war we should have fought to win. The fact that there were assholes like Kerry who came home and told lies that were used as propaganda aginst POW's makes me sick to my stomach. The fact that he is now bringing Viet Nam up and making it the centerpiece of his campaign totally disgusts me. I have no use for him or his fat murdering sidekick Ted Kennedy. I have no use for the Dimocrat Party. They have gone totally insane with their Bush hatred. Until they recover their sanity they have no business running this country.

I forced myself - over my wife's objections - to watch the whole thing. (The sacrifices I make to be an informed voter. And sober, too.) It was all that, and a bag of chips besides. What leapt out at me was the "We can't fight Communism all over the world" line. Oh, we can't, huh? Jerk.

Denny,

The opinions I have formed during the war and for years afterward do not allow me to see things the same as you.

We can talk about the politics of the war, or we can talk of the way things actually happened on the ground in Vietnam.

The most important thing to remember is how we felt at the time Kerry was giving his statement.

I remember quite well. I believe that you do also.

The point I made in one of my previous posts is that young, inexperienced soldiers were put up against NVA regulars or Viet Cong fighters.

By the end of the war, we were no match for our enemy. It had nothing to do with what Kerry said. It had more to do with our leadership's inability to provide a definition of why we were fighting - LBJ's decision after TET in 1968 comes to mind.

In 1970 there was an overwhelming belief, among troops on the ground in Vietnam, that - once the Americans pulled out - the NVA would gain control of South Vietnam.

In fact, Nixon's 1973 "Peace With Honor" assured that the NVA units would remain in the South.

The atrocities that Kerry or the Winter Soldiers spoke of were emblazoned in my mind.

And that is the problem I have.

T D - Of course I respect your opinions, but the fact is the TET offensive was a failure for the NVA and the VC on the battlefield. But what it did was turn the tide at home. What really pissed me off and many other vets I met after the war was the incredible incompetence of our leaders. They made us fight with one hand tied behind our backs. It was a war they would not let us win. When Johnson decided he would not run for reelection, all of us hoped that now we would be able to take the gloves off and really fight. Alas it was not to be.
I despise John Kerry because he associated with Jane Fonda who to this day, I feel is a traitor to her country and she should have been tried for treason and shot. Kerry's testimony was used against POW's to try and break them. I know there were atrocities on both sides. This was war. I don't believe they existed to the extent that Kerry testified. Remember, many of the members of VVAW were not even veterans. They made up atrocities that didn't exist. You don't give the enemy tools to break the spirit of POW's. Kerry is a scumbag and I shall always feel that way.

Denny,

Thanks for your response.

To be perfectly honest with you, in 1971 I did not equate the actions of VVAW as being detrimental to our POWs.

My most immediate concern was with the guys who were still out there.

As for atrocities: This is the part that haunts me - whether or not Kerry and crew exaggerated them.
I saw them. It was my experience. I cannot speak for others. I can't say to what "extent". When one witnesses these things, one has seen the fullest extent. There can be no disputing what a person has seen.

I have come to the conclusion that these occur in ALL wars. But. When there are those who "testify" to seeing these things, I cannot dispute what they say. That is the difficulty I am having.

Did the media conclude that the US lost during TET? It sure looks that way. But why the hell did LBJ fold?

He folded because he knew that he would not get the nomination of his party. Had Robert Kennedy not been shot, he would have been a lock. As to why he didn't say fuck it lets take the gloves off, all I can think of is that he was afraid it would cost his party lost seats in Congress.

It was after TET that Walter Cronkite "the most trusted man in America" came out against the war. That was the beginning of the end.

My feelings at the time were you fight a war to win or you don't fight it at all. I thought we belonged there and I believe I was vindicated by the blood bath that occurred after we left. It was a war mismanaged by politicians starting with Kennedy and ending with Nixon. If you ever get a chance to see Path To War watch it. It showed just what a worm McNamara was.

One of the lessons we learned in Viet Nam is the lesson of using overwhelming force, fighting to win, and having an exit strategy. We did that in Gulf War I but didn't follow up. We did it in Gulf War II but then fucked up in not knowing what to do with our victory. But our condition there is not as bad as the lamestream media is making out. How long did we have to keep troops in Japan and Germany? What? They're still there?

wish you had trackback's set up - you can read my take on the testimony here:

http://www.jadbury.com/blog/?postid=123 (Kerry at 27)

were we watching the same thing?

dd
http://www.jadbury.com/

dd - Yes we were watching the same thing. Did you live through the Viet Nam era? Do you know what it was like to be called baby killer and to be spat upon? We had men drafted and sent off to war and then we had an asshole testify to the United States Senate that they were a bunch of war criminals. We had POW's who had his testimony read to them by their captors to try and break them. Yes, I listened to the same testimony as you did, but obviously I have a different frame of reference. Did you know that VVAW was a communist front organization? And it was funded by Jane Fonda who should have been tried for treason? Did you know that a lot of the "veterans" Kerry quoted were not veterans? That the atrocities that they told him about were not real but made up? Yes I heard the same testimony as you did and it pissed me off! John Kerry is unfit to be president.