Islam is a death cult? I thought it was a sex cult. A camel jockey version of NAMBLA. Their reward is 72 virgins? Sex! Men get wives and rights, wives are property and must submit to sex? Sex! Look at the poligamists in Utah who run off the boys so there are more women. Islam goes out and recruits by the knife. Either way though, its a cult that the world could sure live without.

I agree with the commentary; Every text version of a modern religion does preach peace, however, you get the unrated, uncut version with the zealots who are goaded into thinking women are property, non-muslims are cattle to be slaughtered, and that when they pass into the hereafter, they get 72 virgins and an eternity of sexual gratification? I say Bull S!$#. Islam, IMHO, is a nice plagierized version of the Old Testament that preaches 'An eye for an eye' philosophy and ingrains fear and ignorance into the masses that do not agree with it. Yes, the world can do without a religion that preaches hate, death, and destruction. But anyone who freely kills others en mass for what they beleive is a religious cause, has no soul to begin with; they are just a carbon-based life-form waiting to be programmed.

Hey, if you wanna argument, you're gonna hafta change the subject.

Most of today's mullahs, imams, and ayatollahs are sour old bastards who are pissed because they see other people enjoying life more than they themselves can. They're jealous. They preach return to a "simpler, more natural life," but who doesn't do that at one time or another. They want to be in charge so they can make everybody else as bitter and frustrated as they are. They're after the power -- "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" concept.

But Arabia has welcomed and assimilated Western technology for the most part. It has significantly increased expected life span and caused infant mortality rates to plummmet. What THAT causes is hordes of young unemployed males running around with nothing to do who would otherwise have either died in infancy or taken over from their dying uncles/fathers. Probably nothing on earth is more dangerous than gangs of young males with too much time on their hands and sick, perverted "Men of God" giving them instructions on how to make the world better.

What I wanna know is why the Iraqi people haven't shown any outrage at the constant murder of their families and neighbors by fanatic foreign troublemakers.

I agree with everything you said!

Not only did citizens not riot and burn down mosques after 9-11, good American citizens actually *took up arms* to guard local mosques from that happening.

I have been asking the same question you have for years. "Where is the outrage?" Why don't these so called peaceful muslims denounce the so called "radical minority" of their religion? I am a christian, and as such I do not support abortion. I still get outraged when some murderous bastard blows up an abortion clinic in the name of God. Great post, Denny. You hit the nail on the head.

Is it coincidental that a religion that places woman in a position of servitude and treats them as less than a man therefore lacks their voices to strengthen a moderate viewpoint?

A timely news article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8551653/

We wouldn't be in any better shape here if Fundamental christians were in total charge.

As for Rushdie, he knew what would happen. It's well known (by people who occasionally take their heads out of their asses) that the Koran is considered sacred. Any modification is considered sacrilage because it's considered the direct transmission from God to Gabriel to Mohammed.

Culturally, we have a pretty large blind spot when it comes to the suffering of non-whites.

As far as the virgins thing goes, reads pretty stupid to me. That being said, it takes as much faith to believe that as it does to believe that Jesus came back from the dead after three days.

Let's see. Piss Christ and Elephant Dung Virgin Mary caused complaints from Christian religious leaders, no calls for death to the infidels. Satanic Verses caused cries of Death to the Infidel and a fatwa that called for murder. So you can take your moral equivalency and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. And I am getting a little Goddamned sick and tired of Leftists prating on about how we don't care about the non-whites when we give billions of aid to countries that hate us. I also wonder why if they hate us so much, so many of them want to come here. Finally, why is the sacredness of the Koran so important to you leftist assholes when you literally shit on the Bible which is considered to be just as holy by Christians.

Very well said Denny. I completely agree.

A well-written piece, right on target. From some of the evidence I've read, there is a lot of underground sex activity in the world of Islam, too. Women from non-Arab countries kept as slaves sleeping in closets and eating table scraps from the floor. Pre-adolescent camel jockeys kidnapped and removed from their countries.
When a child is kidnapped or killed here, we issue our own version of a fatwa until a solution is found. If there has been a murder associated with the kidnapping, we go ballistic. In the Arab states, nary a ripple on the water. We have to quit relating our mentality in any way to theirs. As F. Scott Fitzgerald's father told him, "not everyone has had the benefit of your upbringing."

Denny there actually are lots of truly "moderate" Muslims out there who want to change the religion back to what it really should be, not the wuhabi tribal traditions that took root. I know because I am one of them.

The one major problem is that in Muslim nations there are no places to safely congregate and challenge the status quo. That is something that Muslims in the west have a luxury in and myself and others like me are trying our best to organize and put a voice to the need for change. One problem is that the media outlets are giving us very little coverage. Another major problem is a persistant feeling of "victimhood" among Muslims similar to what black people in the US experience thanks to the welfare state keeping them just needy enough to keep voting.

There's a book you should definitely read called "the trouble with Islam today". It's an open letter to the fuckwits that preach that venemous hate shit in the mosques. There is now a community based on the confrontations brought up by the author:
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

And the Iraqi's are definitely pissed about getting blown up. That's why they sign up for the security services in droves even in the face of getting bombed while waiting in line and why many of their people are writing letters to the newly established free press outlets voicing their concern and anger at the terrorists. It's just that the Western media doesn't really care about that voice and chooses not to show it to the world. They know it exists...they get the stories on their desks every morning. I think a part of it is actually a subversive form of racism. The same racism that says Democracy in the middle east is not possible. Check out http://www.voicesofiraq.com and you'll see what I mean.

-Shiraz

"Denny there actually are lots of truly "moderate" Muslims out there who want to change the religion back to what it really should be, not the wuhabi tribal traditions that took root. I know because I am one of them."

Exactly
I am the one who wrote the original comment. I knew an algerian muslim who married a white bostonian woman. I got along with him great. He was devout, but never shoved his religion in my face, judged me for what I wore (and I wore jeans and shorts), and was a good husband and father.
The wife, on the other hand, was a pain.
Also, I like to thank you for debating me in a calm manner. Most time on the net, when I debate, you would think I was insulting people's moms!

"One problem is that the media outlets are giving us very little coverage."

Amen to that one.

I wish more Muslims would become very vocal and active against the terror and anti-Western attitude their religion is expressing. I also wish I was getting younger. About the same odds on both wishes.

Realistic wishes are that we would close our borders, close all the goddamn mosques in America and start the deportation of first, the muslims not here legally, then those that don't want to convert to any peaceful religion. That includes the goofy Black racist Muslims.

Let the supposed "moderate" muslims start cleaning up Islam in the homelands of the Mideast, toss out those hateful old fucking immans, get Islam on the peaceful course of other religions, then apply for acceptance to join the rest of the world.

This shithole Muslim religion has already cost each of us Americans some freedoms and security and if most muslims here were anti-extremists, they would be handing over the goofballs and we would have NO worries.

We are at war. The writers of the Constitution probably never thought of something as extreme and weird as Islam when they wrote freedom of religion. Islam is the only intolerant religion I know of and does not belong in America, period.

Its a shame that the mainstream media presents islam in that light.

The reality behind your viewpoint is slightly skewed. One of the problems within islam is that it does not hava a regidly establishe clergy system, similar to christianity or judism therefore many of these fatwas can fome from anyone.

Many muslims have a hard time differentiating between Islam and Arab culture. Arab culture is very masoganistic and harsh, and much of these traits have been mistakenly propagated as islam.

Please don't discount the moderate muslim voice it is there, much of this violence is a byproduct of a poor, undeducated, disenfranchised zelots who see no other way out.

Within the Koran, you are instructed to teat all religions of the "The Book" with compassion, because all three religions pull from the old testament believe it or not. Muslims revere and belive the same old testement prophets that christians and jews do but in a different context.

Islam wants to destroy freedom and drag civilization back into the middle ages. End of story. If you don't believe this, you are not just a fool, but a dangerous fool. If any of you want to see the funniest view of Islamic stupidity on the web, I would suggest you go immediately to Paxety Pages/Mahone Speaks, and have a look at the movie review: Beach Blanket Burqua. The address is: http://paxety.com/Archive/20050709BeachBlanketBurqu.html

I read that Beach Blanket thing yesterday. I busted a new crack in my ass.

I can't believe my eyes! Who are you people and what fucking country are you living in? Last time I checked the main enemy we all have to face is the slobbery-mouthed monster called the American Media. You keep believing the drivel you see on FOX NEWS and we're all doomed to hell! How many of you have taken the time to source out other news outlets? BBC, CBC, anyone? What about Al-Jazeera? It's all biased, it's all slanted, but if you collect enough data and sift out the bullshit, you're bound to find the truth in there somewhere. Stop being mindless sheep!

It's so easy to characterize an entire culture based on what you THINK you see and hear. Funny, as an African-American, I know exactly what this feels like (So to all Muslims reading this blog, WELCOME! YOU'RE OFFICIALLY DOWN WITH THE TEAM OF NATIONAL UNDESIRABLES!!). My people have been characterized as barbarians, animals, incorrible beasts of burden, drug-pushers, prostitutes, uneducated fools. But does that make all African-Americans dangerous pieces-of-shit that are hell bent on tearing apart the American way one flagpole at a time? TELEVISION IS THE GODDAMN ENEMY YOU BITCHES!

I agree that lives are never EVER to be taken in the name of GOD. GOD, no matter what form He takes in your life, is love, peace, and acceptance. But what about the Crusaders and all the people they killed while trying to rid the world of "paganism"? Was that ok? They spilled more blood than a little bit, all in the name of bringing Christianity to the masses... What about how American Christians misquoted, and misinterpreted the Bible to break the spirits of African slaves and keep them in line? Was that ok? Oh, I guess so since it was a bunch of white men doing it and it happened eons ago. So before you start behaving as if radical Muslims are the only ones to use GOD as explanation for their atrocities, do some fact checking and recognize the whole truth. (I'd also be interested to see if Bush starts swapping soldiers for missionaries in the coming months, but I digress).

Sure, I admit there are thousands - likely millions - of violent, overzealous, Muslims out there that would like nothing better than to annihilate the US government, it's territories, and all of us along with it. But check your facts and know your history before you start throwing racial epithets around. Think about it... the actions of our government and it's ridiculous foreign policy have given these extremists unlimited fuel for their bonfire of hate. What about all of the blood Americans have shed around the globe in the name of "spreading peace and democracy"? Don't forget, that in the eyes of many (dare I say, most) non-Americans, we are the world's largest threat - bin Laden "ain't got nothin'" on us. And I'm inclined to agree with them.

But I guess all is fair in war and war... 70 years ago, the Communist regime was the enemy...50 years ago, the Japanese were the enemy... 30 years ago, MY PEOPLE (BLACK PEOPLE) were the goddamn enemy (shit, we still are).... So now it's the Muslims turn... I wonder who the asinine White Conservatives will pick on next? They're running out of people to blame!

"30 years ago, MY PEOPLE (BLACK PEOPLE) were the goddamn enemy (shit, we still are)..."

WTF???? Somebody plese explain that one to me. I need a new reason for someone to tell me why I should feel guilty for being white....oh yeah...and now conservative too!

I am an Ismaili which is a very small minority of the Shia sect which itself is a very small minority. The Ismaili's believe that the Koran is just a book, not the word of G*d. Ismaili's realize that there is no defined "church" of Islam because the Profit told us not to make that mistake. The problem is not the core of Islam, the problem is that too few Muslims know the core of Islam. Most Muslims do not speak Arabic but their Imam's do. The Imam's pick and choose which parts of the religion to reveal to the people. The problem is not the religion, the problem is the people that dictate it to the masses. It's the same thing Catholicism had to deal with in the 1500's. That's why there was a Protestant Revolution in the first place.

Myself and others like me are trying to form a Protestant Revolution of Islam. I appreciate your points of view but I think it's important that we observe respect towards eachother. We are not at war with Islam, we are at war with Fascists who have blanketed themselves in Islam and a media that refuses to show that truth. Hitler blanketed himself in Christianity and the Occult and that was over looked at the time also. I'm just glad I live in a country where I can debate freely and without fear of reprisal from my government. I'm glad Afghanistan and Iraq have that same freedom now too.

Geez Tara, If America sucks so much, why do you live here?

"What about how American Christians misquoted, and misinterpreted the Bible to break the spirits of African slaves and keep them in line?"

Actually, it was American Christians who were the most ardent Abolitionists, who thought that slavery was a great wrong and worked mightly to end it.
You decry people painting Islam with a broad brush, but you do the exact same thing to the United States and its people. As I said, if this country is so unjust, then leave. There are many who will be glad to take your place and will be glad to be here to boot.

Agreed, it was actually the Dutch, British, French and Germans and African tribes that started the "slave trade". How come they don't get any blame for what they've done? What about the Rwanda situation where 1 million people were killed in two weeks by their own leader? Is that America's fault too?

Even before America was its own country there were many many voices against slavery. We fought a war where more than 4 million of our citizens died to make slavery illegal. It was a white male conservative Republican in the White House that made that decision. What about the slaughters of 30 million Jews in Europe in the 40's? Who ended that?

Isn't it funny how the Eastern European's agree with America's fighting the Communists to free them? Tara, you need to actually travel around the world and talk to people from other countries because the shit you are spewing is ludicrous. There actually is a difference between right and wrong. America may not always be right but we are right a shit ton more than any other civilized nation in the history of this planet. That's just a fact of history.

CharlieDelta... I'll try to explain it to you...

My point was, that conservative white america has made a habit out of villainizing any group of people that does not fit neatly into their little box of what it is to be American... You sure did seem to latch on to the point I made about African-Americans... No matter that I also mentioned the Communist Regime and the Japanese... No... you just sailed right on past that.

I was simply trying to draw a parallel between the growing hatred toward Muslims (moderate and extreme)and the same persecution to which entire races of people have been subjected. Many people who have posted on this topic have made blanket statements about Islam as a whole based on the actions of a few. Since the Muslim Extremists threaten "what it is to be American" now many of us Americans are categorizing the entire Islamic religion as evil... We always fear and hate what we do not understand.

So the point is, the Muslim world is the Flavor of the Decade. I'm not at all ignoring the real danger that we are all facing here. But to unfairly categorize them all as violent and dangerous is about as "un-American" as one can get.

If you feel guilty for being white and conservative, that's your issue. Nothing you or any one could ever say - in an open forum where we are all free to express our opinions - would give me ANY reason to be ashamed of being Black and Liberal!

You're just forgetting one thing Tara, the idealogy of Communism was a threat to the world (not just America) as was the fascist threat of the Japanese and the Nazi's.

America did not just label the Japanese and the Nazi's "evil" because conservative white America villainized them. The Japanese bombed us at Pearl Harbor and Hitler declared war on the United States. It turned out Hitler and the Japanese actually WERE evil. FDR was a Democrat on the very far LEFT of the spectrum and he was the one that prepared this country for war and executed the war. I think you are doing the thing you accuse white America of doing with your very own labeling.

Perhaps you hate what you don't understand but I do not nor do any of my white American friends. I seek to LEARN about the things I don't understand and that has been America's history during the 20th century as well. I think perhaps you need to start picking up some history books before you start making paralells that have no basis in historical fact.

I do not think American's hate Muslims. I think Americans hate Facism. It just so happens that todays facists use Islam as their shield. I think many Americans (including all the troops I know) crave to understand Islam which is why we get along so well with the Afghani's and Iraqi's by and large. Didn't you hear that Afghan tribes nursed our NAVY SEAL back to health while they got in touch with us? Do you remember doing that for Communist special forces at any point? No? Maybe that's because we are doing the right thing.

Is there ANY freakin way we can have a discussion about ANY goddam thing in this country without some whiny-ass bringing race into it? Kee-rist! If ANY ethnic/racial group has a bitch against white Murkans, it's the Amerinds and Chinese. But I rarely hear about Indians or Asians complaining about shitty treatment, racial discrimination, reparations, or any of that crud. The only group making major noises about reparations and return of land are the native Hawaiians, and they have a pretty good case. I will NEVER forgive the Spanish for destroying the Mayan codices . . . in the name of GOD!!!!!

The discussion of Islamist terrorists has approximately nothing to do with African-American history, and most Arabs (who are essentially Caucasian with a touch of Asiatic thrown in for flavor) want absolutely nothing to do with black Africans, except to make house servants, day laborers, or sex slaves of them. In fact, the largest Muslim nation on the planet is Indonesia, FAR from African ethnicity.

And the version of Islam practiced by American blacks and converts in prisons resembles true Islam in much the same fashion as baseball resembles cricket.

Tara-

Let me get one thing straight here. I do not, nor ever will feel guilty about being white or conservative. In fact, I am quite proud of the way I have lived my life and continue to live it! I never owned any fucking slaves, nor have I considered black people my enemy. I just want you to explain to me what you meant by saying that "MY PEOPLE (BLACK PEOPLE)were the goddamn enemy (shit, we still are)." How are you "still an enemy"? That's all I want to know. Why you think you are an enemy to white conservatives. That's it. Or are you just prejudiced yourself and can't admit it? Or see it?

Oh yeah, and Shiraz, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Tara,

You mentioned that you are an African-American. When did you immigrate? Why did you, since you mentioned you are also black, and Americans have had a less then stellar track record of our treatment of blacks in the past? I would think that may be a turn off.

Amen babalu. Tara's just reading talking points from the latest NAACP shakedown.

Tara says, "My point was, that conservative white america has made a habit out of villainizing any group of people that does not fit neatly into their little box of what it is to be American."

No Tara, conservatives make a habit out of villaninizing any group of people who attack our country. Get a grip, beeeeotch.

Tara - I don't really have time to write about your incredibly stupid bullshit tonight, but I thank you for giving me some blogging fodder for a later date. You really need to get a clue.

Rachel - As long as people are polite and follow the rules of this site, I am willing to have an open and honest debate.

Tara- "It takes a village to raise a child". That village is the only community in America with bars on its doors and windows. Not in fear of the "white devil", but in fear of those same children it just raised.
A Pogo cartoon once stated the #1 problem the Black community has, "We have met the enemy, and he is ---- us"!

Tara,

My greatgrandfather was fresh off the boat from Germany when he and his bropthers joined the Army to fight to free your ancestors. One of my great uncles was crippled in that war, another died. The other half of my family were Polish Jews. My relatives in Europe aren't. I know that many blacks were persecuted by the terrorists after the civil war. As in Iraq now, the losers are venting in the only way losers can, they attack the innocent people who were freed. Let us pray that the terrorism in Iraq does not last 100+ years as it did here.
So what do I owe You? My family suffered for your freedom, What thanks did we get? Neither my ancestors nor I participated in the actions that led to your ancestors being enslaved, and terrible as slavery was, The alternative was worse. Most of the Slaves were taken from conquered waring tribes. Without the slave trade, they would have executed the men for sport, and turned the women into sex slaves, the kind of conduct we see happening in Africa now as the tribal wars continue.
Africa is a continent ravaged by AIDS today, a condition made worse by the sexual conduct of the people there. What would be your lot had your family not been slaves? I dread to think what would have become of them.
Islam is the second scourge of Africa. It is being spread by the sword there. People in many villages are attacked and offered a choice, convert, or die. I have been introduced to several young women who were enslaved after their villages were attacked. One girl witnessed her family slaughtered. She and a sister were forced into slavery, and made into prostitutes for their wealthy masters. The other girl was taken from her family and told they had sold her. When her father tracked her down, she was brought in clothed in a burka with full face mask that only allowed her eyes to show, she was gaged underneath and told her father would be killed if she attemped to communicate with him. Once in the room she was asked if she wanted to go home to him. Knowing he would be killed, she said nothing. She also became a sex slave. She was released after she became fat, having delivered several children whom incidentally she has not seen since. She was dying from AIDS when I heard her speak, contracted from her captors. She was only about ten when she was taken, and 18 or 19 when she was released.
Is America perfect? Not by a long shot. Is there a better nation in which to live? None come close. Canada may crow about what they have, but atthe first hint of serious illness, they hop the Bus for the US of A.
For me, I'd like to see the UN or the USA do something meaningful in Africa. Right now, the UN Peace keepers are as bad as the villans they were sent to protect from. Maybe they should be called Piece keepers for the way they have treated Africans.
My daughter went to Africa as a teen Missionary. She was in Namibia. She brough back a lot of information Especially regarding AIDS. It was through her that I heard the young ladies previously mentioned speak.
So Tara, think about your lot in life had your family remained, or returned to Africa. I know that had my family remained in Germany I would not be alive, and many of them would have died in Hitlers Holocaust.

Erik on July 12, 2005 10:46 AM

We wouldn't be in any better shape here if Fundamental christians were in total charge.

...But that's the point. Fundamentalist Christians aren't in charge. And even so, I doubt that even the most extreme fundamentalist would call far outright bloody butchering of non-fundamentalists. Fundamentalist Christians may be many things, many things that neither of us agree with, but they are far removed from the sort of outright hate that we see on the part of the Muslims.

As for Rushdie, he knew what would happen. It's well known (by people who occasionally take their heads out of their asses) that the Koran is considered sacred. Any modification is considered sacrilage because it's considered the direct transmission from God to Gabriel to Mohammed.

...OK-- maybe Rushdie did know that he was playing with fire. Does that make the Fatwa right? And, well, if considering that a temporal, physical piece of paper, ink, and glue might not be literally sacred means I have my head up my ass, well, I'm not sure I can agree with you. If I said "The cross is considered sacred, therefore only a person with his head up his ass would think that people wouldn't take offense to see it immersed in urine," would you agree?

Culturally, we have a pretty large blind spot when it comes to the suffering of non-whites.

...Do we? Seems to me we -- we Americans and Anglos -- have spent a lot of blood and gold trying to defend non-whites, and non-Christians, in many places, including Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan, and the Balkans. And ours is practically the only voice speaking for the victims of Darfur.

(and Tibet!)

As far as the virgins thing goes, reads pretty stupid to me. That being said, it takes as much faith to believe that as it does to believe that Jesus came back from the dead after three days.

...OK, no argument. But who's blowing' up buses fer Christ?

It would be helpful if people like Tara would at least crack a history book once in awhile before spouting their bullshit for all the world to see. I'll take just one of her points...

"But what about the Crusaders and all the people they killed while trying to rid the world of "paganism"? Was that ok? They spilled more blood than a little bit, all in the name of bringing Christianity to the masses..."

First of all, the crusades were not for "spilling blood... to bring christianity to the masses." They were military campaigns to RETAKE territory that had been siezed by Muslim fanatics.

The Byzantine empire was the Eastern Roman empire, and Jerusalem and the rest of Judea and Anatolia had been territory occupied and ruled by those same Byzantine Romans since the first century BC. By the time of the first Muslim conquest, that territory had been Christian for over 600 years, (and Jewish since the time of Joshua.)

The Muslim armies took the place by the point of the sword, not by missionaries. When the muslim fanatics arrived, the people already there - those that survived the invasion - were forced to either convert, flee, or die.

And all of this talk of how "tolerant" the muslim invaders were is just so much more bullshit. Why do you suppose the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aquasa (sic) mosques were constructed on top of the holiest place in Jewish history. And why do you suppose that even though the territory had been Christian and Jewish for over half a millennia before the muslim conquest, the oldest Christian churches and the oldest Jewish synagogues in the holyland date only as far back as that same first crusade.

Roy

Roy
Revisionist History is what is being taught in our schools today. Crusades = bad murder of Christians = good. While part of the hupola regarding the crusades is true, most is not. Some of the crusades' activities were conducted by greedy tyrants, most were not.

Denny
As an atheist, how do you justify you moral position? If there is no God, no great law giver, what makes your opinion any better than Tara's? What makes the actions of the Muslims wrong if there is no God? If all we are is mutated pond scum, there is no basis for any form of morality, and the only law is survival of the strongest.
I agree with most of what you post by the way, and in no way am attempting to disagree with you on your positions.

Brk,

Guess I should have excluded people with oil from that blindspot, LOL! When the hootsies, tootsies, hottentots or whatever they are were being killed it took years for us to do something. It's just a thing we have. Somehow, we make a value judgement on lives and can live with it. I just don't get why we find it so offensive when others don't care for/about us since there are tons (billions) of people who could die and we wouldn't care.

Tara:
Just because you're a guilt ridden troll doesn't mean there isn't hope for you. Just get a burhka and I'm sure you'll met the imman of your dreams. Failing that you can just hang out at NOW meetings till one of the sisters hits on you. There is somebody out there who has the same IQ as you. Have you tried calling Hillary's office?

We live in a world of many contradictions. Sorting them out can be bewildering.

The Caliphate doesn't have administrative control over the masses of Moslems.

There will always be fanatics when it comes to belief systems.

The purpose of religion is to awaken people to their spiritual nature, and to UNITE them in fellowship and love.

Violence in religion is a contradiction, but, it happens all the time. It's the miss-use of the religious impulse.

Shiraz and Tara, I appreciate your comments.

Bonita - Actually, there have been many violent religions. The Greeks and Romans had a god of war that they worshipped as did the Germans and Nordic people. The Phoenicians had Baal and their religion included human sacrifice. The Aztecs also had human sacrifice. Religion has been used to justify violence many many times in history.

Oh, yes! Thanks for pointing that out. I'd love to know more about those, sounds interesting.

Isn't it amazing how people want to believe in SOMETHING. What does that say about us...and why do we have that need...

Any religion that devotes 12 full pages of text in its holy book to menstruation is clearly the work of the devil.

So is anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die!

--The one major problem is that in Muslim nations there are no places to safely congregate and challenge the status quo. --

I wasn't aware the US, Britain, Canada and Ozland were traditional muslim lands (contrary to what some textbooks teach).

What's preventing them?

There's the big muslim Labor Day weekend event in Chicago every year, zip, nada, bupkus after almost 4(!) years.

Well obviously you didn't read what I said afterwards Sandy. I pointed out that Muslims in the West like myself do have the luxury and that many of us are taking action on it.

There's nothing "preventing" others. It's a lack of leadership. Myself and others like me are trying to create that leadership for reform but as you can imagine it's a big task and with nobody in the media looking out for us, it makes it that much more difficult.

Shiraz - If only there were more Muslims like you. Maybe if the LSM would pay less attention to the whining assholes at CAIR and more attention to you, but what's wrong with me? I'm dreaming.

I appreciate your position, Shiraz, and wish you well. I've heard others say that there is a need for a reformation in Islam as there was in Christianity. I agree and I hope that you and people like you succeed in this effort. It appears from here to be a monumental task.

Tara,

Careflul when you crack that history book. You might find that the first slaves in the U.S. were Scots captured and enslaved by the Vikings.

The English did the same thing with Scottish soldiers captured in battle. There were also Scots who were sold off by their own people and sent here as slaves. The same happened with the Irish for a time.

Those white boys didn't hold up too well in the fields of the south so only then did the slave merchants turned to the Arab (Moslem) slave trade out of Africa.

You can look it up.

Thanks Denny and StinKerr. There is a growing voice for reform. Our goal is to make sure that voice gets so loud that the media can not ignore us any more. All you have to do is look at Lebanon to see what I mean. The media is downplaying what's going on there right now.

It's indeed a momumental task but the most important tasks often are. And if the world is going to be safe and we're going take Islam back it's a task we must succeed in. I'll keep you guys posted on how we do.

Women today are attempting to upgrade the role they play in religion. I'm proud of them. Here is another devoted believer, Jewish:

www.geocities.com/Shira-hadasha/

She can also be reached at 'elmsinthe yard.blogspot.com'