Please, please send this to J. Jackson, and A. Sharpton!! Dead on Denny - great post. Poverty is a choice for MOST people - I have not one bit of pity for them.

I think people on welfare shouldn't be able to vote. When you accept welfare, you sign away your voting rights untill a certain period of time after you get off welfare. That way you can't vote for someone to get more welfare. That would never happen so i think the best solution would be a federal lottery. At least half the welfare money given out would come right back to the governement.

And let's not forget all the stuff you qualify for if you are "living in poverty." Food stamps. Free healthcare. Housing vouchers. "Earned Income Tax Credit" (extra bonus welfare, average $2300/year). Etc, etc, etc....
It was reported about two years ago that a single mother with two children in San Francisco could, without working, collect over $33,000/year (cash and cash equivalent) in various services and benefits.
I used to live a few blocks from the Army Street projects in SF and saw the new cars, the $250 sneakers, the satellite TV dishes sticking out of their free two bedrom apartments (to rent one in SF would run at least $1500/month).
I wouldn't mind paying taxes to help out the 5% or so of folks that really need help. What gags me is funding the other 95%.
The gummit admits that more than 50% of food stamps are misused. So what do they do about it? Nothing, because it might "punish the innocent."

If a child grows up with both parents smoking crack, no positive role models, no one to tell him when he's 12 "Don't sniff butane," "don't drop out of school," or "don't have kids," then do you really believe poverty, or for that matter -- stupidity, is a choice?

YES!

Jimmy - What is your solution? Mine is sterilizing people who go on welfare so the crack smoking parents don't have any more children than they already have.

I wasn't going to add to this, until I read Jimmy's post. It hit a nerve!

If the people lived in a vacuum then I would agree with him, but they don't. There are outside influences that make a difference.

I worked in juvenile correctional facilities and adult prisons where the "clients" have some good role models, are given the opportunity to learn a trade or work skills, attend school and group counseling where improving your lifestyle is emphasized. Some make changes, others don't.

I also taught in the public high schools when I retired from correctional work. Kids see examples other than the lifestyle of their parents and want to be like their peers.

Many teachers tell "Johnny" not to use drugs...we babysat kids who were high or coming down from drugs on a daily basis, we tried to get students counseling or rehab...I had no problem "getting in a kid's face" and telling him he was f**king up big time... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Teachers often take poor kids under their wing and help them out...I can't tell you how many kids I gave rides to and from school, 'loaned' lunch money, slipped them $25+ so they could go to dinner before the prom, paid for caps and gowns at graduation, employed some students so they would have new clothes or spending money, filled up many a gas tank for students that were broke and needed to get to and from work and school. Many of my co-workers did the same "on the under" (as the kids would say) to avoid administration's wrath.

Many kids see that there is a better life than their parents. They talk about wanting more in life and their distain for their parents bad habits. The lazy ones don't make changes, but many want more for themselves and do something about it.

I was raised by The Family from Hell and made every effort not to be like them...and I'm not.

Proverty is a choice...

Now I will climb down from my soap box...

I have to submit to random drug testing to hold a job, a job that I work damn hard at. Why not the same requirement for these lazy bastards who collect a welfare check. Just a thought...I'm done.

The Dimocrats, on the other hand, love the poor because that is where they harvest their votes. They think you can solve poverty by giving poor people money or maybe they know that that will keep them in poverty and voting for them.

I call bullshit on this one, Denny. They don't "think" you can solve poverty by throwing money at it. They know you can't. The Democrat philosophy is to dole out just enough government money to keep them dependent on governemt and voting for Democrats.

Denny, being poor isn't a choice, its a mindset. I grew up on a 80 acre dairy farm. The weekly check was $120 IF all the cows were producing. We still had to buy fuel fertilizer and feed. We never thought of ourselves as poor. That was in 1976, when I was 14. my first paycheck when I started construction was over $200. I though I'd hit it rich! We never had indoor plumbing. Heat came from a wood stove, one in th kitchen and one in the living room.
The only way to combat poverty is to get people out of that mindset. Simple solution, we need to give up entitlements. Every person we get off welfare becomes a person fueling our economy. We need relief workers for the Post Katrina and Rita work, and have an enormous pool of unskilled people available. Physical disabilities? I have a friend who is a quad, he still has a full time job. Mental disabilities? Hunger helps with the mental disability. You get hungery, you will work. Nobody except maybe a true liberal is stupid enough to starve to death. Got a pack of kids? Take them along. If they learn a work ethic early, they won't become welfare slugs like too many parents are.
I'm sure our poor do live better than the average person in Europe. Again though, its a mind set. The Europeans have always done with out some of the stuff our "poor" demand. From what I remember of Germany, The apartments were much smaller than anything I've lived in in the states.
In most cases the poor just need an attitude adjustment. I got mine in 1976 when I got my first paycheck.

Adding to my previous post....the success stories weren't from the Black community...the White and Latino individuals were the success stories.

And I'm not being racist...just facts.

You know what all this is? It's like a dog chasing its tail. Denny can post this or similar stuff where WE all know how to solve it. But until these people who think they "work hard for their welfare checks", as one welfare queen once said, and realize that they can do better IF THEY GET A JOB, nothing will change. I agree with Denny, if these women want to keep collecting welfare, sterilization should be MANDATORY after the first or next child after the law is changed, otherwise, no more monthly stipend from us oh-so compassionate suckers. I hate to say this, but we're not dealing with thinking humans. We're dealing with breeding machines and sperm donors, who don't have the brains to know or CARE about how to raise their offspring. It almost sounds like the animal kingdom, but at least female animals teach their young how to survive on their own, without having to rely on other animals.

I agree with you in many ways, and I realize this is a bit of nitpicking. But one flaw in your logic is that minimum wage jobs are 40 hours a week. Usually jobs that are over 20 hours a week require some benefits; so, those WalMart and fast food openings are usually 20 hours or less. From experience I can tell you that juggling two jobs adds up to more than any one job, requires a lot of dedication, and sacrifices any home life.

Don't know where you get your info, bottlestop, probably from the DNC or the AFL-CIO, but Wal-Mart on average pays double the minimum wage. And choosing to accept benefits is an option, and not required, at least not at any job I've ever had.

I read somewhere, and it may have been here, that a large percent of the Asian immigrants come to the USA and in 1-2 generations, they are in the middle class. How can other ethnic groups have been here for generations, and live in that kind of lifestyle? One word: choices. Bad choices, choices to have kids as fast as they can, drop out of school because it's not cool to be smart, steal, do drugs, have more kids, etc.
Being poor is a choice. Three generations ago, my family was plowing farmland in the middle of NC. In 1-2 generations, they are upper middle classs. Choices. Choose to graduate from high school, choose to go to college, choose to work, choose to raise a family. Choices. I like the 'give welfare recipiants drug tests' idea.....what in the heck is wrong with that!?!? Do that tomorrow! If you can't stay clean, stay even poorer! Help those who help themselves. Choices. I'll shut up now.........and no, I'm am not a racist. I'll help, and am today, any man, woman, or child who will help themselves....even a little, no matter where they come from. Just choose to make something out of your life.

I don't know about Walmart, but around here WinCo (local food store, welfare puppies like it) start employees with 38 hour weeks to avoid benefits until they prove themselves. After a couple months (when the dead weight drops) they give them full time with top of the line benefits (medical costs $12/month for a family if I remember correct) and a stock plan. The only skills needed are the ability to show up and willingness to work.

You guys are very ignorant of the true welfare recipient-A white, for the most part, very wealthy individual with maybe two or three houses and a fleet of lawyers. I would like you guys to lay down your arms for a minute and listen to something I have to say. We are all brothers and sisters on this bus earth, and the wealthy and powerful do not care one iota what happens to us, those in power want us to fight and call each other names and grow a very great divide between us. It is called divide and conquer a policy carried out with great success all over the world. Listen we have a war killing our brothers and sisters and their brothers and sisters based on lies. The terrorists are one thing, Iraqi citizens another-I don't like terrorism anymore than you do, but the killings of our soldiers will stop if we bring them home where they belong. We have no business fighting this illegal war, the cost is so astronomical as to put America in a possible tailspin, we are borrowing money from China for god's sake. George has put us in peril as a nation, I know you will let me have it for this, but it is time to come together as brothers and stop this insanity. I was in the service, I was ready to fight for my country but since then I have done a lot of reading and came across this-part of a speech by Eugene Debs a union organizer at the turn of the century, he was arrested for sedition and this is what he said at his trial in september of 1918:"They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and have yourself slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war, by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people."
I am not trying to be a wise guy, what I am trying to do is get you to open up to other possibilities, other ways of thinking. You guys are very patriotic and you love America. Well, so do I, just as much as you.
Regards,
Burnie

Burnie, you are an ignorant ASSHOLE.

Burnie- I consider myself one of "the rich and powerful". You want to know why? Because I can take care of myself and my family. If they need anything, I'll be there. And your bullshit about going to war is just that- bullshit. There is no draft, and when there was, it was for a reason, regardless of whether or not you agreed with it. The fact is the elected representatives of the American people declare a state of war. It's not a pleboscite. The USA is a representative republic, not a true democracy. To say that the killings of our soldiers will stop if we bring them home is utterly stupid. Where were our soldiers pre 9-11? They were not at war, yet about 3000 civilian americans were killed that day by islamo-fascists. Burnie, some things are worth dying for, and this is one of those things. Pacifists such as yourself are the reason terrorists hit us on 9-11, because they sensed a weakness in the American people thanks to 8 years of Bill Clinton doing nothing to defend this country after we were attacked here and abroad.

Burnie, Rob is right, you are an IGNORANT asshole. The Saddamizer had a UN resolution to PROVE that he was in compliance. He instead ran the inspection teams out under Clintoon. Worthless Willie should have invaded then! Instead he waffled on it. We declared war on terror and those who support it, regardless of the where or the who. Saddam was supporting terror against Israel. American tourists died in bombings there. Since the invasion of Iraq, terror attacks in Israel have dropped. That served notice to Lybia and Mortimer daDaffy. The worlds #2 terror supporter sat up, took notice, and canceled Christmas for the organizations he was financing.

Geez Louise. Why don't y'all consider using some manners, eh? You could have made your point(s) just as adequately without the tiresome name calling. Really. Is that how you behave when you go to a party at someone's home? Do you introduce yourself to people by calling them an ignorant asshole as a preamble to conversation? I didn't think so. It's so easy to be a beligerent tough guy on the internet, ain't it? Civil discourse is a sign of maturity. Our country could use some of that.

I may be an asshole but certainly not ignorant-if you guys would really study and read you would find that everything you have said is bogus information based on exactly what this administration wants you to think and I won't even go into 9-11. this present government does not care one iota for your well being. They have caused untold misery and death for thousands based on a lie, this war is about three things only, money power and oil, which we could have had without all this insanity and death, now we can't even leave the green zone to work on those oil fields. We live in dangerous times and I still say you people and I can somehow come together and if not now, then in the future we are going to have to find a way to get along, we need each other, and thanks Marcel for being a stand up guy.
Burnie

there are people who live in our neighborhood who are "poor". the three families that i am thinking of all have 2 or more children. None of them are married. None of the children have the same father as another child. None of the three mothers is over the age of 25. All of the families receive government funded housing (leaving less than 100 dollars out of their pocket in rent). All of them receive over 200 dollars per month in food stamps. only one of them works. she works under the table, not reporting her income to the local government in charge of her case. All of the children have brand new Nike tennis shoes. All three of them drive cars that are less then 5 years old. Sometimes i wish i was poor and immoral. Instead I work damn hard and my husband works even harder to support our family without help from taxpayers(ok ok my oldest is in public school... so i guess you DO pay a little). What happened to the good old days when little girls who got knocked up went away and someone adopted their child and gave it a good home instead of the high school providing day care adn my husbands tax dollars providing her cost of living?

My poor Denny, the average price for a flat in Paris is 5700 €/m2.
That means almost 7000 $ !!
You understand why they are not as big as in the desert of texas !!
;-)

and about the poverty : use the HPI-2 rank.
(http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/indicator/indic_34_1_1.html)

Human poverty index (HPI-2) Rank
A composite index measuring deprivations in the three basic dimensions captured in the human development index—longevity, knowledge and standard of living—and also capturing social exclusion.

USA has the last and 17th rank, France is 8th, the first is Sweden.

;-)

Dimocraps like the poor. By using my tax money, they can pay the poor to vote Dimocrap. Now if Liberals had to pull that vote buying loot straight out of their own pockets, well, the poor might really be poor.
Why so many Cad-o-laks and Escalades in subsidized housing parking lots??

- Rob Cooper : I don't get why you attack Burnie ?? He didn't attack you !! You're fully driven by your emotions.

Ok Burnie is against the war, who isn't for peace anyway ?

He didn't get why this war is necessary, that doesn't mean he's an asshole.

He just wanted to try to make you think of the governement in a different way.
As I can't bear any politician, I must confess that I quite agree on his direction about the guys who got the real power.

The governement do like most people : sadly, they are selfish. Dimocrates or Republican, it's not the question since I'm talking about human behaviour in general.

You know, I hate politicians because they are just a bunch of fools fighting for power.

Like dogs in a cage, they always attack and bite each other. No honnor for those guys.

A politician is a guy who sold his humanity, his soul, and sometimes his reputation, for power and money. One more time, it's about power and money. As animals want to have domination and food. It's a small evolution :
domination & food => power & money

How can you trust someone like this ?? They are the real assholes of the world. All of them.

Why ? Imagine a cage full of dangerous dogs fighting for power, what do you think will happen if you put a kind one inside ? That's why politics are at 99% assholes, simply to survive amongst the other assholes.
The ones who are not like this, rarely manage to fight enough to get in politic.

Politic is an assholes contest : the wider wins!

Burnie, the points you make have a vague bit of legitimacy to them, but don't stand up to the reality test. I served voluntarily in Vietnam and don't think I was used. My politicians gave a victory away(Tet68), but I helped stem the growth of communism. DanS may argue that point, but he also earned his opinion over there. Eugene Debs statement makes absolutely no sense to me, but then he was a union organizer, and I put unions in the same ballpark as communism and islamism. Lemmings all.

Prosper, you might love the forests, woodlands and rolling hill country we have here in Texas. Mountains and seacoast also. It is only partially desert. Poverty in America is the result of personal decision abetted by government. Stats don't mean snot other than counting how many people choose to be losers. A person can come to America legally, alone or with a family, not know English well and in a reasonable length of time have a comfortable wage, own a house and have his kids earning scholorships. It happens ALL the time. It is called honest inititive.

To be rich is not a choice, it's a skill.

Some have it, and teach their kids this way, some are very bad and always loose.

As Denny said, to be poor means you're a looser. With a bit of thinking you can get out of it.

Why don't they simply make a deal with the poor :

They could give them the money only if in exchange they accept to learn how to use it in an intelligent way.
The governement could check each week that they respect their part of the deal and don't use the money to buy big flat TV.

Why the government don't try to educate the poors and axplain them how to become rich ?
'Cause instead of this, the leftist (in Fr it's the same) give money (OUR money) to them so they'll keep voting for them and they won't try to learn how to become rich. It's a circle.

I'm trolling, but does anyone else see the irony in this statement...

"Why the government don't try to educate the poors and axplain them how to become rich ?"

TomR, i agree with you that USA is the best place to become rich if you are a hard worker. That simply a fact: your country has the largest number of millionairs... But i insist on the dark side of the system : poor are poorer. Indeed, you pay less tax, so it's easier to become rich, but you care less of the poor. It's a choice of society.
And about the texes, it's true we (in france or europe) see all texans as cow-boys in desert, and i'm sure it's not reality.

True that we should compare what is comparable:
NYC vs Paris vs London etc..
And maybe the shithole Atlanta could be compared to Mulhouse or Auxerre..
:)
Any way, USA is a "new" country , as big as the whole Europe: things have been built bigger.
Another fact: the latin countries have traditionnally smaller house / flat than the nordic countries (maybe cause they live a longer time in their house). The average flat in Germany is not the same in France, Spain etc..

But can Denny understand this.. mister know it all.

PS: I'm not sure all the poor in USA have air climate: of course they all do not have it! And so in France, Germany.
We try to talk about average and stats based on the same entries regardless the countries.

And that's a kickass for USA!!

;)

"Don't know where you get your info, bottlestop, probably from the DNC or the AFL-CIO, but Wal-Mart on average pays double the minimum wage. And choosing to accept benefits is an option, and not required, at least not at any job I've ever had."

Can people be paid for 40 or more hours a week at the same job without getting benefits? I've heard of a lot of places limiting you to no more than 37 hours so they don't have to pay benefits. Is that a local, state, or federal law?

If I'm not mistaken, anything above 32 hours is considered full time. I know plenty of people though who have jobs of 40+ a week who receive no benefits. Conversely, I know a few hwo work 20 or so and have bennies. It all depends on the business. Some businesses are exempt from providing them because of size. I know that the cap for workmans comp is 16K a year. I provide it for my part timers simply because its smart.
I held a job for some time that was a part time job, yet was getting 50-60 hours per week.
In money news yesterday they reported that number of Millionaires grew by 700,000 last year to 8.9 Million.

Dave - Pierce is French so he is not writing in his native language, hence the improper sentence structure. How do you think you would do in French?

Burnie - You have ingested and spurted out all the socialist talking points. When I have more time I will address your comments.

Marcel is right, Rob. Let the ignoramous throw the first stone. Dispute him on facts. He's obviously a brainwashed minion of the Dimocrat Party so he's starting at an intellectual disadvantage right off the bat. He should not be insulted (except by me), he should be pitied.

Prosper - And yet for some strange reason more people want to immigrate to the United States than do to France or Sweden. Why is that? People supposedly live longer in Cuba with their "free" health care and "free" education but no one is trying to go to Cuba. Quite the contrary. The people are braving shark infested waters in dingy rafts and make shift boats to get out.

There is more opportunity for getting rich in the United States. That is why they come here. As I've said many times, poverty is a choice and we have a permanent underclass that has been created by the socialists dependent on gummint handouts. That skews our statistics. You and Sweden just pay your poor better benefits. Unfortunately for you, the chickens are coming home to roost. How much longer can you pay over 10% of your population the generous benfits you are paying? Industries are fleeing France and Germany. Talk to me in another 10 years and we will compare economies and poverty. I haven't checked the link out, but I imagine it's more US bashing bullshit.

BTW. to the booger eatin' moh-ron (my site Marcel, I can engage in insults first) who called me a Mr. Know it all, you're right. I started out poor and now I'm a millionaire. I made choices.

Pierce $7000 for a flat in Paris? I got a 2500 square foot house in the suburbs of Atlanta. No way I'm gonna live in a dinky little apartment.

Can someone tell me who invented the tax code when Klinton was in office? His wife maybe?

Some people try to portray Dimocrats as the group that serves as a vehicle for the poor, lifting them up and away from their wretched existence. But it's kind of hard to save money when you're funding big gummint via a relentless tax code.

I was in college during the Klinton years, and I distinctly remember the graduate teaching assistants at my university complaining about paying taxes when they were making such a small amount of money through their stipends. They were, by every definition of the word, poor and struggling college students. Klinton did not care. Everybody paid taxes: rich, poor, middle class, etc. If you think Dimocrats get in office and "tax the rich" and "give to the poor" like Robin Hood, that's not necessarily true. They tax everyone--in more ways than one.

I just wish both sides of the aisle would learn to bring spending under control. It's the Libertarian in me--I can't help it. There's plenty of waste in our government, and if we could rid ourselves of it, then every American's life would improve.

Just my opinion.

Denny, Industries are fleeing France?

ask wikipedia : Yet according to the OECD, in 2003 France was the OECD country that received the most foreign direct investment.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Economy)

;-)

Denny, about area unit and flat in paris :

i talked of price/m2.

$7000/m2 = $650/square foot.

(1 square foot = 0.0929 square metres)

Then your unemployment rate should be going down right? How come it isn't?

I got to this site quite by accident and thought I would put in my two cents worth of opinion-not worth much but all I have, my intention in commenting is not to play games with any of you, you are fellow bozo's on the bus just like me, the only intent was to start a dialogue because I feel it important to try and have a middleground where we can talk and obviously disagree with each other-that's okay. I have verifiable fact after fact to refute evry argument you have put forth-but I give-uncle, you win-don't hold it against me-I love America the same as you and all I see is an administration running this country into the ground, shipping our jobs overseas. We are borrowing money in amounts that are staggering, and we are borrowing it from China, a very dangerous game. This is our country, yours and mine and the beautiful thing about it is we are both free to make choices and have opinions. If it is okay with you guys I would occasionally like to comment here-none of said comments would attack any of you-being called an asshole or whatever you want to call me doesn't really upset me, and I don't have to be the winner in any argument,I don't need to win, I just want to have a dialogue, for christ's sake we are all connected to each other and fighting will get us nowhere but hot under the collar-as I said the rich and powerful want us divided, it makes the job of controlling us easier. and I will not be controlled-let's see if we can find some similarities, I know we have many things in common.If not, I won't bother you again
Burnie.

It is Denny, under 10% for the first time since 2003... What you don't understand is we (europeans and americans) don't share the same values. So you could pick a lot of numbers explaining how great is your country (biggest army, a lot of rich people) and i could do the same (less poverty, cooler way of life). But you know what? I red your president called on Americans this week to conserve gasoline by driving less. He also issued a directive for all federal agencies to cut their own energy use and to encourage employees to use public transportation. No more american way of life, you're becoming european man !!

;-)

burnie:
". I have verifiable fact after fact to refute evry argument"

But amazingly enough... you're not going to stick around and present them.

Funny thing, facts. The UN resolutions are easily linked to, for instance.

"this war is about three things only, money power and oil"

You know, largely, you're correct. The money that was to be made raping the Iraqi people, for one, and was paid to the (primarily) French, Germans, and Russians, as well as to Islamic Terrorists. The power of the control and threat to the world's energy supply. And "oil" is really a facet of the previous two.

That's what the war was about. Now the Iraqi people are voting, fighting terrorists who wish to subdue and subjugate them again, and have a chance to be in control of their own destiny.

Funny how I support that, and you don't.

Burnie opined:

...if you guys would really study and read you would find that everything you have said is bogus information based on exactly what this administration wants you to think ...

Just out of curiosity, can you provide a specific example of what I should read to gain enlightenment?

Max

I am so very sorry Burnie. Max- To answer your question to Burnie, read anything written by Karl Marx.

Addison - Thanks for taking care of Burnie's second comment. I handled the first one. It's just like shooting fish in a barrel. The liberal thought process is a wondrous thing to behold.

Prosper - Our president asked us to conserve. That doesn't mean we will. We will let the market place determine that. We are a long way from adopting the European way of life. We don't believe in appeasement or surrender. Like I said, let's compare economies in the next 10 years or even in 5 years. BTW, our unemployment just dropped below 5%.

I almost forgot. Jules - We have bigger houses because we have more money. We are wealthier. We live large. We are Americans. We are the richest and most powerful country the world has ever seen. And as for air-conditioning, we don't lose 14000 people in a heat wave. The heat wave you had in France is normal climate here in the South. Like I said, even our poor have air-condioning.

So that's it? Yes is the answer. It's a choice? End of story? Are all of your perspectives really so one-sided?

Do we have any public defenders on the forum? Anyone here that's worked with people so poor that they had to stay in jail for a month because they couldn't come up with $100 for bail?

Now, I don't have to tell all of you intellegent whities that there's a class system. The poor aren't your friends. They're not your neighbors. You don't consider them as potential mates. They're your burden.

You'd all like to believe that laziness is a personality flaw. Well, we're in agreement, then. It is. But it's a cop-out to leave it at that. What perpetuates this flaw? Denny'll fight you tooth and nail that he's known people of all colors make it big. So, genetics is not the answer. Ignorance is the root of our evil here.

And how does one combat ignorance? Information is what the ignorant lack. The BIG-3 that Denny's always preachin'. Good lessons all. If you don't want them having any more of your money, then make sure it's appropriated better.

Concentrate on education in poorer neighborhoods. And by that I don't mean "Magnet Programs." Ask any teacher in a Magnet School, and he'll tell you that the rich and poor (whites and blacks) are more segregated than ever in those schools. But Magnet schools are created to increase the average test score of a school so that it gets more money next year. It's a quick fix.

There are countless other problems with the education system in this country that couldn't all be addressed in this rant.

You say that poverty is a choice. I say that poverty is ignorance. You wanna fix it? Teach them your BIG-3, Denny. Go to homeless shelters. Tell them how much better off you are for knowing these simple 3 rules, and that their children's children should know them, instead of preachin' to your choir.

Jimmy - If our education system could be fixed by money we would have the best system in the world. Education requires accountability which the teachers unions will fight tooth and nail.

Good idea about me going to homeless shelters to preach my stuff but that won't work. I'm just a know it all rich white dude after all. No, it has to start within the communities. We need political leaders talking up this shit. Unfortunately, we have a political party, the Dimocrat Party, that wants people to remain poor and uneducated because that is their power base.

Bill Cosby comes out with a message about black responsibility and he gets savaged by the liberals. It's far more easy to blame everything on racism. Geez Jimmy, we've thrown $5 trillion dollars at poverty in this country and what do we have to show for it. Both black and white illegitimate births are at record levels. As Moynihan said we have defined deviancy down. Let's make excuses for people who make poor choices. Let's make excuses for demagogues and race hustlers who blame whites for everything.

I do have to thank you since you've given me an idea for another post, Excuses. I'll write it when I get back from Helen.

Well then, Denny...if the Dimocrats hate the poor so much, then the Conservatives must be that much more caring. What are they doing to help reduce poverty?

Growing the economy. School reform. Standards. Accountability. All things that the Dims are against.

Burnie,
How many times are we going to have to hear the same old phrases like “caused misery and death for thousands based on a lie”? You might as well have stated the tired liberal meme, “Bush lied, people died”. The thing that amazes me most is the all too apparent short sighted memory possessed by anyone who has championed this sorry anti-war cry. I have asked others with this very same viewpoint what they mean about the “lies” and they can never seem to give me a straight answer. It usually involves some version of “there were no WMD’s” as if this was the sole reason for our attack on Hussein. But let’s pretend that it was. Based on our best intelligence, (not to mention the fact that the world knows Saddam used them on Iran as well as his own people) Iraq did possess WMD’s and our politicians were acting on this data. Every intelligence agency, including allied intelligence from France and Germany was convinced of Saddam’s WMD possessions.
Bill Clinton said they had WMD’s, "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." -President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.
Hillary Clinton said Saddam had WMD’s, "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." -Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
(I’d note the “aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members” but we are making believe that WMD’s were the sole reason we attacked Hussein controlled Iraq, so I will refrain…)
Al Gore said Saddam had WMD’s, "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
How about Ted Kennedy, yep, he also thought Iraq and Hussein possessed WMD’s, "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.
John Kerry, yep, him too, "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

Hans Blix, chief UN Weapons Inspector addressing the UN security council had this to say, "Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance -- not even today -- of the disarmament, which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and to live in peace."
Dr. Hans Blix, Chief UN Weapons Inspector
January 27, 2003

Based on intelligence the world believed Hussein had WMD’s, and that he was a threat. Based on this data the UN Security Council adopted resolution 1441 in a UNANIMOUS vote. This resolution advised Iraq that military action could result based on the fact that Saddam possessed WMD’s that had not been accounted for. Iraq still refused to account for them.
If the government has been feeding us lies regarding the war I’d like to know what they are, because so far they have been pretty clear in their objectives.

Here are Donald Rumsfeld’s list of goals in the campaign in Iraq, quoted on March 21, 2003, two days into the war and taken from cBSnews.com:
(I have removed the bullets and replaced them with numbers, otherwise the quotes are unaltered.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/11/iraq/main548893.shtml

1- "to end the regime of Saddam Hussein by striking with force on a scope and scale that makes clear to Iraqis that he and his regime are finished."
2- "to identify, isolate and eventually eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, their delivery systems, production capabilities, and distribution networks."
3- "to search for, capture, drive out terrorists who have found safe harbor in Iraq."
4- "to collect such intelligence as we can find related to terrorist networks in Iraq and beyond."
5- "to collect such intelligence as we can find related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activity."
6- "to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian relief, food and medicine to the displaced and to the many needy Iraqi citizens."
7- "to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people, and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect by the Iraqi regime."
8- "to help the Iraqi people create the conditions for a rapid transition to a representative self-government that is not a threat to its neighbors and is committed to ensuring the territorial integrity of that country."

Pretty clear huh?

We also have the fact that Hussein violated the UN Security Council resolutions regarding weapons inspections for WMD’s. And this is something the media commonly overlooks. The onus to prove nonexistence of WMD’s lay directly on the Iraqi administration run by Hussein. They easily could have done it, why didn’t they?
In addition there were numerous occasions where Iraq violated the cease fire agreement, firing on our aircraft in the no-fly zone (which is an act of war I would like to point out).

“-if you guys would really study and read you would find that everything you have said is bogus information based on exactly what this administration wants you to think…”

It’s easy for you to say, but how about producing some backup.

"Go to homeless shelters.." give me a friggin' break....

When I worked in law enforcement I volunteered to accompany the school district's truant "counselor" to homeless who lived in run down motels in Sacramento. The counselor wasn't threatening, she tried to encourage parents to send their kids to school, get physical exams, etc. and offered to provide everything from clothes to transportation. We also worked with battered women in shelters.

The school district spent $1000s on a big RV that had a clothes closet for kids without clothes, often times a school nurse (RN) would go along to provide medical attention or advice.

The people were so hostile that we wanted them to send their kids to school that a County Sheriff
had to accompany the counselor on her rounds.

Being a "Whitie," maybe I just don't understand why people didn't respond, didn't send their little kids to school ... instead they moved so we couldn't bother them????

I'll admit many of the families were cranked out tweeker Whites, but the majority weren't....

Sacramento County began pulling welfare from families who had school age children not attending school or children who were habitual truants. Parent's were arrested for not keeping their kids in school and the kids placed in protective custody. Not nice.

My first job with the school district,after I retired from law enforcement, was to go to low income areas in the school district, knock on doors and encourage parents to get their kids in school and inform them what the legal ramifications were if they didn't. I set up attendance "contracts" with the parents and the students. For the young children, there were rewards for attending school. I was one of many who worked with these kids encouraging and providing every kind of assistance you can dream of....including buying kids alarm clocks to wake them because their lazy good for nothing parents couldn't get their lazy a**es out of bed. There is more being done in schools than people realize in the attempt to get low income kids to stay in school and break the cycle.

Schools aren't a mess...the parents are a mess
and the damn liberal thinking of the ACLU and lefties in this country are ruining education...
legal handcuffs prevent schools from doing their job.

Prosper isn't serious, less poverty?

If Sweden were a state, it would rank in the lower 45.

That's your best $-wise socialistic country over there, isn't it?

Someone's forgotten what a Soviet general once said, it seems to me, when they were showing how rotten life in America was in the 60s. The poor were living in their cars.

Average Russians didn't own a car.

You're freedom from, Prosper, we're freedom for. The 'twain never shall meet.

If Sweden were a state, it would rank in the lower 45.

Swedish bashing ? That's new ...

It appears Sweden is the most efficient country in the fight against poverty, and you, you just say : "No, that's not true !".

It's a good one, indeed...

- CAshane : did you think about publishing your comment in a book? I've never seen someone writting so much - except me sometimes ;)
Could I have a summarization ? I'm lazy you know.

Time for an economics lesson for you euro-pussies. First of all, as the American economy moves, so moves the rest of the world's. If our economy farts, the rest of the civilized world has to say "excuse me", and hope they can recover. Our recessions last on average 2 years. Yours last for around a decade (Including Asia). Our unemployment might hit 6% tops, but much of Europe's, regulary averages and tops 10%. You know why? Because we don't have the entitlements you have, nor do we have the government propping up various corporations (Other than Amtrak, but don't get me started on that waste of money) to the tune of billions upon billions of dollars each year. We rely on capitalism, i.e. supply and demand world-wide, to determine how sucessful our corporations are. There were exceptions, such as the government bail-out of Chrysler Corporation in the early 80's, but those are so, so few and far between.
This is why our economy determines what your economy does. You euro-pussies complain that we're about 6% of the world's population but we use 25% of the world's resources. Try to consider that even though we are only 6% of the world's population, we're over 25% of the world's economy, which goes back to what I first said- We fart, you say please excuse us...

Rob Cooper, you economy is much more fragile than you think. Of course you are more efficient, and I regret our governement keep on being leftist.

But as your system react quickly to changes, when you got a crisis, you got a big one. In fact what slow the growth of our economy also slow the drops of our economy.
We are hit more smouthly by crisis but longer. It's a choice.

Your economy is stronger, simply because the only purpose you got is economy. Our governement pay more attention to humans than to economy.

We EU are investing a lot in China, French compagnies are starting to make a lot of profit in China. French laws are too heavy, but as we get to China where laws are lighter, it's not a problem. And compagnies like Renault are making a lot of profit, only with their foreign investement.

Do you know that Nissan is French ? It belongs to Renault.
We own a lot of shares in US compagnies, so we make a lot of money thanks to your system,
while we can still help poors in our country.
Our compagnies don't make a lot of profit in France, but French have good foreign results thanks to well develloped strategies.
As it's hard for our compagnies in france, they have to be very strong and well structured.
So when they get out of France, they most of the time have excellent results, as it's easier.

China is gonna soon change the balance, you'll see anyway. The first power in the world will be China. And for the moment, in China, the French are amongst the best.
EU is not declining, our economy growth is just starting to raise. And if we sink, you'll sink too.
When one of us fart, both say sorry, and as you don't understsand the strong connexions that already exists between our economies, I guess you didn't study Management.
EU compagnies own USA compagnies and USA compagnies own EU compagnies. Don't forget it.

And for the "pussies" insults you said, just go fuck your mother she loves it.