This is what happens when the liberal-leftist-PC opinion on race becomes ascendant: a mind-boggling dichotomy erupts. Race doesn't exist, but whites are racist. Race isn't real, but people of different colors must be forced together, except that children of "color" must have dolls that look like their faces, while all children, who are "inherently racist," must be forced to play with children of other races. We're supposed to celebrate "diversity," but we're also not supposed to notice it.

The idiot patient you witnessed fails to understand that race plays an enormous role in susceptibility to disease and the efficacy of certain medicines. For instance, it makes no sense to screen whites for sickle cell anemia, because whites virtually never suffer from it. Similarly, it's a waste of effort to screen blacks for Tay-Sachs disease, because it simply isn't found in the vast majority of blacks. Just as there are differences in susceptibilities, there are differences in how well certain drugs work in people of different races. The cretin of a patient should have thanked his doctor for prescribing the best drug, as well as the dedicated researchers who created it for him--but I guess that's not on the agenda for the "gimme-gimme-gimme/blame-it-on-the-Man" crowd.

Social Security is racist,

You are damn sure right it is...... This year my wife & I journeyed to the well of everflowing liberal benevolance (SS Office) to sign up. While seated patiently waiting my turn, I noticed of the 20-30 some people there only my wife & I were of retirement age as well as caucasian.

When we were ushered in for our sign up ritual , I posed a question to the interviewer as to why so many young black people in the lobby ......The answer as explained was that these people were playing the system for all it was worth & further to compound the problem it was common practice for this segment of Society to be tutored as to how to take advantage of what was supposed to be a Retirement system to support their welfare existance.

I was shocked first that is was happening, second that the SS representative was so open about what seems to be a little known system abuse. I had always thought Social Security was primarily for the retirement benefits of People who had worked & paid into Social Security not a pot of gold to be raided by people who were perfectly healthy & capable of working. Reality does suck some times.

Squidley, If I remember correctly, wasn't some of these diseases caused by glue from food stamps?

Do Blacks suffer from turrets of the mouth?...have you listened to their loud jibber jabber?...does that qualify them for SSI?

Yes, I'm being facetious.

The other side to this House episode is, why did the doctor have to say "you want to screw whitey?"...talk about a racist remark! Can you imagine a white doctor on House or ER saying; "you want to screw the "N"...then live longer than him?"

What the black doctor should have told the black patient is; Hey, if you don't want this medicine that will help you live longer, FINE...I don't give a happy rat's ass!"

That way nobody would have been a racist.

Good point, Andy. I guess I've become so inured to black racism that I took it as a given.

Oh, no, wait, that's right: only whites can be racist! (note for the humor-impaired: that's sarcasm)

Another point: if a white doctor said to a white patient "you wanna screw the [insert demeaning term for blacks here]?", the white patient would be so appalled that he'd probably file a complaint, and at the very least, would never go back to that racist doctor again. Would most black patients respond the same way? Probably only a tiny honorable minority.

It is refreshing to know that these fictional events on television and bad experiences here and there hasn't caused all of you to make sweeping generalizations about an entire race of people.

Yeah, you should not make sweeping generalizations except about white folk. Then it is ok.

Nigga pleeze!

@ unmisinformed

LOL! As ignorant as the word is, and anyone who considers it to be an acceptable part of their vocabulary, I would have to say that these so called rappers are smarter than you. At least they are getting paid to make fools of themselves.

Anybody who looks at the social security system as racist is smoking crack in my book. Additionally, anybody who is at a working age, such as myself, and is not making plans for long term "safe" investing is also smoking crack. I never knew that welfare recipients were bilking SSI for funds, but as immoral as it may be, it is apparently not illegal if the worker talked about it. I think we need to find fault with the loopholes in the system that allow this and close them. I have found that despite the different races, and their apparent predilictions for certain types of behaviors and crime, there are just two different sort of people out there. Moral, and immoral. Fortunately there is no color line when it comes to morality.

In my line of work, I work with a lot of races, but like everywhere else in America, the majority are white. The upper echelons are generally male and white. I haven't run into any particular problems myself with superiors, but I have had a few incidents with peers and subordinates.

I have found that over the course of my life, the "perceived" racism is the culprit in most cases. Whites and blacks both cry about it now. If it isn't discrimination that blacks talk about, it is "reverse-discrimination" that whites talk about. In some cases there is merit to both sides, but more often that not it is usually something that could have been settled internally.
I was raised by a Father and Mother who were born in Southern Alabama in 1933 and 1934 respectively, so I am painfully aware of what went on. Fortunately I have not had to suffer that indignity as they did. But now that I am 34 years old, I look back over my life at when I thought I was a victim of racism, and the way I reacted I discovered a couple of things. Number one, the situation was not as cut and dry as I would have liked to have imagined, and sometimes my reactions to this were racist within themselves. I am trying to get my kids into this manner of thinking early on, so they won't find themselves distracted from the tasks at hand.

I actually had a guy say that he was interested in going to OCS, but he knew better than to try because "by being white" his chances weren't good. When I in formed him that there were no mandatory quotas for the Officer Corps in the Army, and there were no lower scores necessary for the ASVAB, the physical fitness aspect, or lesser educational requirements, he responded with, "Really"?

I am raising my kids, especially my boys, to be conscious of the dangers that are out there. In particular, I concentrate on letting them know that some of their main detractors will be people of their own race. And it only gets worse as you get older. Additionally, I have had to work with them about not being hypersensitive about people calling them "nigger", or making disparaging remarks about their race. More often than not, the person who would stoop to such things is not worth the time or the effort. It took me to the age of about 24 before that sunk in. Hopefully I can get it completely across to my kids early on.

Dkel, great post.

While there are obviously racists in ALL races, the racism that is and has been the most harmful to the black race in America is the soft racism of the guilt-ridden white liberals in the dimocratic party, the NAACP, and race-baiting poverty pimps such as Je$$e Jack$on and Al $harpton.

For the last 40 years they've been telling blacks that their only hope is:

A. Quotas- Because blacks are too stupid to compete, so it's the only way to even the playing field.

B. Welfare- Because they cannot get jobs because of white racism, and they're owed it because their ancestors were enslaved 150 years ago.

C. Blaming "whitey" for all their problems rather than telling (and showing) them that blacks in America have more opportunity to succeed than in any other country on this planet, including all the countries of Africa.

If you go through life with a chip on your shoulder, you're most likely NOT going to succeed, because rather than looking at what one can do to succeed (and it's not very difficult- just graduate from high school, get ANY job, and don't have kids before you're married and can afford them) they've been "educated" by the dimocratic party to believe they have no chance because America is a racist country, when nothing could be further from the truth.

"I'm not racist...i just dislike everybody equally."

Disparaging remarks are part of life. Name calling doesn't single out any one race or group of people. People are so careful not to offend a Black person...but every one else is fair game?

The Black race doesn't have a monopoly on a history of hardships.

As far as SSI is concerned...it does look like the welfare department these days.

Prison inmates who are drug addicted and suffering from stress or emotional disorders brought on by their addiction or incarceration are eligible for SSI...PATHETIC!!!! While people who have worked their asses off and paid into SSI get a run around when they apply for it.

I have a pension...but I have worked and paid into SSI for years. In my late 60s, I'm not eligible for benefits because of my income!

I am not going to speak for the entire black race, I can only speak for myself. Unprovoked disparaging remarks about me that are said in my presence are irritating, but will not elicit a response from me for the most part. I don't think that anyone should have to coddle a black person so they won't be offended by some arbitrary statement. However, what I note most of the time...especially on the internet...is the fact that many people vent their frustrations via keyboard. I generally make it a habit of not saying something to someone on the phone or by letter or email that I would not say to them in real life. Also, past experience does not license a person to denigrate an entire race of people. I have my incidents with racist people. Some people were pretty blunt about it, others were a little more discrete. But, my experience doesn't give me license to talk about people as if they were less than me.

My father, who experienced segregation, and new a life when the vestiges of Jim Crow were still hanging around never taught me to hate. He always told me that I needed to do more than my white counterparts in school to get recognition, and to get ahead. I am not sure that is true, but I see the value in that thought, and I know what his frame of reference is.

Now I am in a position where I bear the brunt of scorn from whites and blacks. Some blacks question my "authenticity". Some whites assume that somehow I was given everything I have. So basically, I have had a measure of success by kowtowing and performing a "step and fetch it" for white people, or else some highly deserving white person was standing in line in front of me, and the trap door of Affirmative Action opened up and swallowed him whole.

I literally had someone (another black person) tell me that they were surprised my wife was black because of the way I talked. I didn't see what one thing had to do with the other. When I had the funny look on my face they further explained that because I "acted" so white they figured I would naturally have a white wife.

Strange shoes I walk in...not any more or less difficult than yours, just different.

"The other side to this House episode is, why did the doctor have to say "you want to screw whitey?"...talk about a racist remark! Can you imagine a white doctor on House or ER saying; "you want to screw the "N"...then live longer than him?"

What the black doctor should have told the black patient is; Hey, if you don't want this medicine that will help you live longer, FINE...I don't give a happy rat's ass!"

And we are conditioned to take it. If we point out this racist remark, we are racist ourselves. What GARBAGE. We are promptly reminded of the suffering of slaves in this country. When I get into discussion on this matter with my darker skin brethren, I remind them that I am Irish and proceed to explain some of my cultural history. Some will listen and others walk away annoyed. Know your own history and theirs and beat them to the punch. This is one more reason to beat the hell out of the asshole who started political correctness=mind control.

DKelSmith, I consider you to be an honorable person. I don't think you could have gotten as far in the Army as you have if you weren't. From what you say (both here and on your blog), you appear to have accepted the standards of mainstream America, which, whether we like it or not, are WASP standards. These norms were born of white, Protestant, English settlers and their descendants. So many of our American values--the (Protestant) work ethic, equality before the eyes of the law, individual rights, self-restraint--are from the WASPs. Historically, immigrants and native-born minorities have accepted most of these values, and even though some groups (e.g., Catholics) have held different beliefs, they have, on the whole, bought into those overarching societal norms.

Then came the Worst Generation and the 1960s. The Baby Boomers (not all, but way too many) decided that these values were "bad," and, through their extreme liberalism, sought to destroy the very society that made them. Though their work is not complete, they have made great "progress." As a result, we have group rights (e.g., Affirmative Action) instead of individualism. We have reliance on the government's teat instead of independence. Instead of restraint, we have bling and self-aggrandizement (one of the earliest and most "successful" practitioners of which was Mohammed Ali, a disgrace to the notion of sportsmanship). Instead of a work ethic, we have a code of "gimme the "free" gummint money." Instead of equal rights for all, we special rights for groups. Instead of understanding that people--even groups--are different, we have the myth that "everyone is the same."

It appears you think I'm a racist, but I consider myself to be a "race realist." This means that I think race is real, and that it has real effects on who we are. It also means that I understand that race is far more than just external things like skin color; it also affects our metabolisms, susceptibility to certain diseases, body fat percentages, and a host of other factors.

Furthermore, despite decades of denial by the PC police, there remains a demonstrable correlation between race and intelligence. The fact is that on average, blacks are one standard deviation less intelligent than whites. Hispanics fall somewhere in between. On the other hand, East Asians have higher IQs than whites, and Ashkenazi Jews are highest of all.

Don't believe me, or don't believe in IQ tests? The Army sure does. They won't accept anyone with an IQ lower than 85, which bars a significant number of Hispanics, and an even greater percentage of blacks. For the Army, 85 is the cut-off point for trainability. Furthermore, they've been testing IQ for decades, and have quite a track record with it. You know better than I that the Army isn't about about theory but about practical application. They wouldn't conduct IQ tests if they weren't effective.

On the other hand, ever look at statistics for the student body at UC Berkeley? Asians make up less than 4% of the US population, but a whopping 39% of the Berkeley student body. It's not just luck.

So when I make disparaging remarks about the lesser civilizational abilities of blacks, I am disparaging their rejection the WASP norms that this society was founded on. (Before the 60s, when blacks accepted WASP norms, things were much better in black communities.) Furthermore, that rejection has been nothing less than disastrous for blacks, as witnessed by rates of out-of-wedlock births, criminal activity, and incarceration. I don't blame an individual for his genetic makeup, but I do blame people for their actions. Sadly, too many blacks behave irresponsibly, even criminally.

It was painful for me to give up my PC indoctrination that "everyone is the same." I think it might be doubly hard for an intelligent black or Hispanic. But facts are facts, and they don't care how we feel about them.

(Sorry, Denny, for blathering on so long, but I hope you find it worthwhile to allow me to defend myself against an implied charge of racism.)

Dkelsmith - I hope that you don't think I'm a racist as a result of my post. The whole point of my post was pointing out the ridiculous get offended at any cost black patient and the fact that Social Security is a rip off for black males since they have a shorter life expectancy than white women. That's one fact in favor of private accounts. But that's a post for another time.

vicki - Huh? WTF? Of course you can get SSI. It doesn't matter how much money you make.

...my pension offsets SSI..all I will get is MediCare...of which I don't need.

I haven't received a SSI statement since I moved to GA and spoke with SSI office in Gainesville this morning. My pension is more annually than I'm allowed to earn and receive SSI. It is called "double dipping"....Seriously.

I paid into SSI before and after I worked for the state.

I'm furious.

Denny,

No, I do not think you are a racist. I saw the purpose of your post immediately, and I saw the humor in it as well. You are cool with me.

Squidley,

At no time did I say you were a racist. I made a comment about someone making sweeping generalizations, and perhaps you thought that I equated that with racism. If I thought you were a racist, I would have stated that plainly. Racism is when I harm someone, or someone harms me based upon color. (at least in my book, and harm is not limited to physical). I certainly don't recall at what point I implied you were a racist, or that I even addressed any of my posts toward you.

You may be older, but I seriously doubt you have as firm a grasp on the reasons for why the black community is doing so poorly as what I do. I was fortunate enough to have been born to black parents who were born during a different era. (I was an oopsie. I am 34, but have 39 and 49 year olds for older sisters.) My parents grew up poor in the deep south before there were any such things as welfare programs. They picked cotton and did odd jobs. Both of my grandmothers cleaned houses, and did all they could to make sure that their children had as much as they could. (Neither one finished grade school) Hard work, family, and church were the only things that held a family together. There was no check on the 1st and the 15th, so both of my grandfathers worked their fingers to the bone. My father's dad was a Brick Mason. My mother's dad worked for the railroad. (Neither one finished grade school) My parents knew two-parent homes. I knew a two-parent home. (My folks celebrated their 50th wedding Anniversary this past January 6th.) I may not be white, and Protestant (I'm black and Catholic), but the ideals that I follow are scripted by the bible and good wholesome parents. I haven't simply assimilated into "white culture", I didn’t have to. I was born here and I grew up into “American Culture”. I am an American citizen and I follow the law, I work hard, and I want what everyone else wants, or should want. I want a good life for my children so they can be more successful than me. How am I different than you aside from my color? I don’t disagree with your statement that White Protestants got things started here, but you are reaping the benefit of their work just like I am. While I am sure that this is a source of pride for you if you can trace your ancestors back to Jamestown or whatever, but in the 400 years that this ball of wax has been rolling, it has received a push from more than just one kind of person.

Vicki,

I don't think you are a racist, I did send you an email earlier which should explain everything. I am not sure why you could not get SSI. My father spent thirty years in the military and retired as a Chief Warrant Officer, and then worked another 18 years as a federal employee and retired at a GS 14 level and he collects Social Security. Either you are a multi-millionaire, or you need to shoot someone down at your nearest federal building.

unmisinformed,

Your use of the phrase "Nigga Please", was obviously an attempt at humor. I have to tell you that you fell far short of the mark. While MTV, crappy music, and movies may tell you that that “nigger” is a universally accepted word in the black community it most certainly is not. I will give you a black colloquialism that you can use though. Had I been heard to have uttered the word "Nigger", "Nigga", or any other variant when I was growing up, my parents would have "slapped the taste out of my mouth." I don't use that term at all, nor do my kids. Yet and still, I wouldn't consider you a racist...I just chalk it up as you not having any class when you are hyped up on "keyboard courage."

All,

I think this is a positive dialogue here about racial issues. If people aren’t typing in all caps or cussing at one another, I think it is a good thing. I gain something from hearing your viewpoints, and what you think of other races. Hopefully you all can glean something positive from what I have to say as well.

I Love House as well. He does unfortunlatly represent how most Docs feel. They are beyond sick of ear and sinus infections.

Dkelsmith...I read your blog and admire you! I understand what you are saying.

...and, no, I'm not a millionaire! My civil service job paid into a pension, not SSI. I was told there are new laws that prevent people from "double dipping"... altho I've worked other jobs since retirement that pay into SSI.

So, I should go 'postal' at a SSI office????

Vicki,

I would be pissed, I figure if you pay in, you ought to be able to reap the benefit. I do retract my statement about going postal. I don't want to be an accessory after the fact! :-)

So it's because you were a gummint employee. I understand now. But, you should get something for what you paid in working other jobs. Not much, but something.

Squidley, if those IQ tests were so effective, don't you think Nobel Prize winners should be east-asians or israelis in the majority ?

you write "there remains a demonstrable correlation between race and intelligence"...

and the skin-color is a decisive factor for your race classifying. But do you think a pygmy is from the same racial group than a maasai ?

Dkelsmith,

Absolutely a great post, I admire you & your success in life. ,You are not to use a tired attribute "credit to your race" you are a credit to the entire country, an example for all to follow. If people of all racial extraction understood & followed the path you have so precisely put forth, the abuses of the system as I & others have witnessed would never have happened.

As I posted to you before on learning of your impending return to Iraq.......My thanks & prayers go with you & the men who serve with you.

Dudley1

Dkelsmith,

I appreciate your comments...You must admit however, that equality has come a 'hell-of-a-long-way'. I grew up in the sixties, and in the Mississippi Delta...I know what I was and how far I have come, embracing blacks.

But here in Mississippi, racism still happens; and mostly by blacks. Oh yes, blacks can be racists.

You yourself know the stir that's caused by the use of the "N" word; my argument was, why did a network show feel the need to have a black use the term whitey in a offensive statement to another black?

Does the media and/or blacks not think that whites can be offended? Of course we can, and often we are.

The issue is, let's ALL move forward and not just some of us.

I am still wanting and waiting for my 40 acres and a mule.

Andy,

There is no need for you to ask me to "admit" that equality has come a long way. I don't think that there is anything in my postings that says that it hasn't come a long way. My parents grew up during the 30's and 40's in Southern Alabama, so I would say my awareness about how things were, and how things are is pretty keen.

Maybe blacks perpetrate the majority of racist actions in Mississippi, I don't know. I would think that anybody would be offended by a disparaging remark about a race, hence my earlier post about teaching my kids not to be hypersensitive about such things.

I agree EVERYONE must move forward.

Prosper has come along and left another ProsperPoop(tm) for us.

Please learn to read more carefully. I said that "race is far more than just external things like skin color."

Nobel Prize-winning is not the only way to "measure" intelligence. Furthermore, there's a lot more to intelligence than just those elements measured on an IQ test.

May I suggest you try reading a few books? Please start with The Wealth of Nations and The Bell Curve. You might also give something by Howard Gardner, like Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligence, a shot. Then try something by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, like maybe The History and Geography of Human Genes. (At the very least, read about them on Wikipedia!)

Prosper, I think you have potential, but I also think you really ought to be better informed.

DKelSmith,

My apologies for saying that you implied I was racist. I guess I was being too sensitive.

I make generalizations, partly because I have a rudimentary understanding of statistics. I also know that there are exceptions to almost every rule. It can be hard to fit both of these into a comment here at GOC.

You say that "Hard work, family, and church were the only things that held a family together." These are WASP values.

I said that "Historically, immigrants and native-born minorities have accepted most of these values." I agree with you: you and your family did not assimilate; you accepted.

You and I are, in fact, very similar, in that we both accept traditional common American values. We are alike in that we both "follow the law," "work hard," and "want what everyone else wants," including wanting "a good life for [our] children so they can be more successful than [we]."

While you are correct that it has been more than just WASPs who have contributed to America, my point is that until recently, non-WASPs have accepted WASP standards, and have aspired to reach the same WASP goals. The destruction of these standards and goals that has taken place since the 1960s has been extraordinarily deleterious to America as a whole, and to most of black America in particular.

You and your family are an exception to the generalization of black America's civilizational decline. Would you agree that your success is due, in part, to your and your family's acceptance of traditional American values? Would you disagree when I say that the destruction of black America is due, in part, to most of black America's rejection of traditional values?

For the record, most of my family immigrated 3-4 generations ago, though on my maternal grandmother's side, we go back to the Revolution. Oh, and I'm only 1/8 English, and personally a non-believer, so I'm not much of a WASP--but I accept and live by most of those values.

Prosper - Actually Jews are over-represented in Nobel Prizes. I wish I could find that list somesone sent me. Guess I may have to do some research.

Dkelsmith - great dialogue - I thank you for making this a very open and interesting discussion. Too bad that you would be considered "too white" as you are an asset to the HUMAN race.

Prosper - Aha! I found it.

At least 170 Jews and persons of half-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize, accounting for 22% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2005, and constituting 37% of all US recipients during the same period. In the scientific research fields of Chemistry, Economics, Medicine, and Physics, the corresponding world and US percentages are 26% and 39%, respectively. (Jews currently make up approximately 0.25% of the world's population and 2% of the US population.)

Maybe Hitler should have used German's Jews instead of killing them.

I do not have any statistics on people of Asian ancestry but judging by their over-representation in our major universities, I suspect that they will start carting home Nobel prizes in the sciences.

I know someone who adopted a Chinese girl and she started using a computer when she was free. That's how she discovered her daughter was left handed when she used her left hand for the mouse.

Thanks not only to DKelSmith for his contributions, but also to Denny, for creating this place where we can discuss a variety of issues in at least a semi-civilized fashion.

DKelSmith, please be careful when you go back to Iraq. Be especially careful of the Hispanic gangs that have invaded the Army.

Not to flog a dead horse, but...

DKelSmith wrote,

I have found that despite the different races, and their apparent predilictions for certain types of behaviors and crime, there are just two different sort of people out there. Moral, and immoral. Fortunately there is no color line when it comes to morality.

To which I will respond with another quote, from a commenter at View From The Right:

[T]here are empirical inequalities [between races] that are probabilistic in nature and [...] they are large enough to have socially and politically significant outcomes.

So yes, there are moral and immoral people, but the sad fact is that a greater percentage of blacks and Hispanics are immoral than whites. I do not mean to besmirch you personally or all blacks and Hispanics, but facts are facts. Two of them are that according to the Department of Justice, blacks are seven times more likely to commit murder than whites, and that the absolute number of black murderers has exceeded that of whites in every year since 1986. This is all the more remarkable when considering that blacks make up only about 12% of the population. (And I think all of us non-Moslems would agree that murder is one of the most immoral things there is.)

As for Hispanics, well, I'll paraphrase Congressman Tom Tancredo (honest-to-God Republican, CO):

If we had a real day without illegal immigrants (three-quarters of whom are from Mexico), we'd see a 50% drop in gang membership, a 40% drop in car thefts, and a 34% drop in child molestation in Phoenix. (Again, all of us non-Moslems would agree that child molestation is horrendously immoral.)

So what's my point? It's that race is real, with real-life consequences.

I would also like to add that I personally do my best to approach individuals for who they are, and evaluate them as humans on a case-by-case basis. I do my best to avoid prejudging--but I still keep statistics in mind when going to certain neighborhoods.

Last detail to convince me Denny.
You wrote "At least 170 Jews and persons of half-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize"

Could you estimate the proportion of people on earth who have at least one Jewish ancestor, on their mother-side or their father-side ?

I just couldn't say if i belong to this category...

But i'm not sure of the definition of half-Jewish ancestry, and maybe i didn't understand what they meant...

Squidley, you wrote : "race is far more than just external things like skin color."

and you wrote : "the sad fact is that a greater percentage of blacks and Hispanics are immoral than whites."

In France, black and white are often counted as colors. And, i read you carefully, you cannot describe a racial group without refering to skin color (some of you call hispanics "browns").

Squidley,

I do have to say that I realize that there are different races, and that there are racial differences. However, I believe that by design, (meaning by genetic predisposition), people are not "wired" to be moral or immoral. If there are any differences in intelligence. (depending upon what you define as intelligence.) Then the differences among different racial groups would be very small.

You do contend that whites do better than blacks on IQ tests across the board, I would not dispute that. You referenced IQ tests in the Army as an example to go by. Personally I was never given an IQ test by the Army, or by anyone else for that matter if I am not mistaken. I took the ACT and SAT before I left High School. I took the ASVAB and the DLAB in the military, and I took the GRE after I finished my bachelors degree before I started Grad School (Which I have yet to complete to date, Renee is finishing school now herself I plan to finish when I get back). All of those tests were predictors for my aptitude in varying tasks based upon three main areas. Verbal Reasoning, mathematical/technical aptitude, and logical thinking.

If I am not mistaken an IQ test would not merely reflect how well I have conceptualized and retained what I was taught in school, but it would indicate the ability, or potential that I would ever hope to reach. I am not the most intelligent person in the world, but I don't consider myself to be an idiot by any stretch either. But, I know had I been born to parents in the inner city who were in their teens, we probably wouldn't be having this exchange of opinions over an internet connection presently. Standardized tests are not racist in my book, but Squidley, if you were born to lazy, uneducated parents who sought to pass on to you that doing well in school was a trait that was not indicative of the race that you belong to, and that by doing well you would never have success anyway, can you say that you would be where you are in life now? I certainly know that I would not be. The measure of morality that you speak of is not something that is innate. It comes from acculturation. Young black kids on the whole have bought into this crap about "black culture", and "white culture". The "culture" that you and I are both talking about is not something that inner-city blacks, or trailer-park whites feel as if they belong to for the most part. Unfortunately for blacks in this country, we have a grossly disproportionate representation in the prison system, and the welfare system, which continues to further widen the chasm between us and other races in this country.

I don't know how to fix things, but Moynihan had the right idea about what the culprit was back in the 60's. It was the breakdown of the black family unit. I also know that the only way to make things better is for the family unit to come together once again. If you or I had the answer to that, then the problem would be over. Just my opinion though.

Prosper,

Please go do your homework! "Black," "white," "brown," "yellow," etc.--they're all convenient shorthand. But skin color is still an important part of who we are, because we inhabit physical bodies. Take those away and we are nothing.

DKelSmith,

Excellent, thought-provoking stuff. You and I agree with each other more than it may appear. More later (I have to get ready for work now).

But skin color is still an important part of who we are.
your point of view, not mine.

Take those away and we are nothing.
or we are just non-racist people who don't care about skin-color ?

Awesome discussion guys! One of my pet peeves is black leaders who aren't railing about the breakdown of the black family caused by the liberal social welfare state. The ones who do talk about this, get castigated by the black "leaders". BTW, there has been a breakdown of the white family as well as is evidenced by the illegitimacy statistics buyt they are higher among blacks. Dan Quayle, for those of you old enough to remember him, was right. I hate to see human potential wasted and that is what our War on Poverty has engendered: multigenerational poverty and dependence on gummint.

Prosper, believe what you want, but try a thought experiment: would your life be the same if your skin color were different?

Here's another question: would you exist without your body?

For the record, I'm a non-racist person who does care about skin color, inasmuch as it has to do with race and the statistical associations therewith. "Race realist," or perhaps "racialist."

would your life be the same if your skin color were different?

surrounded by guys like you, no. But by guys thinking like me, yes...

Denny,

I agree with you. I am not a fan of anyone who considers him or herself to be a "black leader". Any person who bears such a title is usually self-appointed, and probably has the leadership ability of a cabbage. The people who really make a difference in this world, regardless of their race or community are the ones who avoid the spotlight in my book.

I don't like circling the wagons at police shootings or brutality claims. I am sure that there are some cases out there where a policeman decides to exert their will and authority on someone for no reason, but as friendly as the courts are to outrageous cases, even the most hateful try and stay on their toes. I have been inconvenienced and more "thoroughly" checked out during traffic stops, but since "Sir" and "Ma'am" come out of my mouth when dealing with people I don't know, I can usually disarm an unpleasant situation. Additionally I don't consider someone to be racist if they hassle me. I have been the victim of more equal opportunity assholes than what I have been of true racists.

Vicki,

I received your email. Thanks, everything is understood. I am going to Iraq indeed. I am currently on leave until the 27th, in that time, I am healing from oral surgery, playing with the kids, growing facial hair, and limiting my PT to 12 ounce curls. Note that I said nothing about yard work or the "honey do" list? Renee has been content to let me vegetate before deployment. Have a good weekend, and Happy Father's day to all that it applies to.

I shouldn’t have to say this, but will anyway: when making general statements, it should be understood that there are exceptions.

Stand-alone phrases in italics are quotes from DKelSmith.

If there are any differences in intelligence. (depending upon what you define as intelligence.) Then the differences among different racial groups would be very small.

Actually, the differences are statistically significant. See here, here, and here for discussion. Furthermore, intelligence has been shown to be highly heritable.

The politically-incorrect fact is that people are not the same, that everyone does not have the same innate abilities or potential for achievement. This should be common sense--at one time, it was--but in our insane PC world, we have gone beyond the highly-achievable procedural equality (i.e., equality under the law) to the unattainable substantive equality (i.e., equal outcomes for all). A liberal democracy requires the former, but cultural relativism and multiculturalism require the latter. This is why we are burdened with Affirmative Action, group rights, the assumption that blacks’/Hispanics’ lower achievements must be due to white racism, and more (good analysis here).

Personally I was never given an IQ test by the Army

Actually, you were; they just didn’t call it that. The Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) has some practical areas, like Auto & Shop, but a most of it--Arithmetic Reasoning, Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Mathematics Knowledge, parts of Mechanical Comprehension--is an IQ test. The Defense Language Aptitude Battery (DLAB) is an IQ test, too. The Army is the most-experienced IQ test-administering organization in the world.

(BTW, did you go to DLI? If so, what language?)

If I am not mistaken an IQ test would not merely reflect how well I have conceptualized and retained what I was taught in school, but it would indicate the ability, or potential that I would ever hope to reach.

Ah, testing! Achievement, proficiency, ability--what are you testing? It depends on the test, and more. It’s a complex topic; see here for a discussion of g, the general intelligence factor, and here for something about IQ testing.

if you were born to lazy, uneducated parents who sought to pass on to you that doing well in school was a trait that was not indicative of the race that you belong to, and that by doing well you would never have success anyway, can you say that you would be where you are in life now?

Of course not. Values are absolutely part of the equation. Before the 1960s, just about everyone accepted the dominant culture in America: the WASP culture. WASP culture emphasizes education, respect for authority, high achievement, moral behavior, and more. Black culture used to strive for these things too. However, since the 1960s, traditional WASP culture has been disparaged, with horrendous results, especially for blacks and Hispanics.

However, if I were from such an environment, then I would probably be not only less educated, but also less intelligent and poor. How can I make that claim? Because income is correlated to education, and education is correlated to intelligence. Low-income individuals tend to have lower educational achievement, because they have lower intelligence. Without education, they lack access to greater financial success, though many intelligent people are able to succeed without formal education (e.g., Lincoln, Edison, Gates).

If we accept that East Asians (average IQ: 105) are smarter than American whites (average IQ: 100), and that Native Americans (average IQ: 86) are less intelligent, then we see why Korean immigrants to the US, despite their imperfect knowledge of English and American culture, are often successful, and why Mexican Americans (who are primarily of mestizo, i.e., Indian, background) do so poorly. Stats for Mexican Americans (HS = high school grad; AA+= 2- or 4-year college degree; data here):

2nd gen, HS: 48%; AA+: 9.3%
3rd gen, HS: 77%; AA+: 8.5%
4th gen, HS: 59%; AA+: 9.6%

The averages for other Americans: HS: 76.5%; AA+: 45.1%

Clearly, Mexican Americans fail to come to par with the mainstream, and I don't think we can put all the blame on culture. I would never deny the impact of culture and environment on societal achievement, but I also cannot deny the impact of hereditary intelligence on achievement either.

[The culprit] was the breakdown of the black family unit. I also know that the only way to make things better is for the family unit to come together once again. If you or I had the answer to that, then the problem would be over.

Actually, I do have the answer: a return to legitimacy for the white race. Right now, in PC America and Europe, whites are not even allowed to acknowledge themselves as a group, much less as one with equal value to others. On the other hand, we celebrate minorities, and, much to our detriment, unassimilable aliens. (N.B.: I am not advocating white supremacy!!!) I am advocating a return to white consciousness, to white legitimacy in our own eyes, to traditional American values. If whites insisted that everyone follow our norms, most societal problems would be fixed in a generation or so. Lawrence Auster is the guru on this topic.

Darn! I wrote a nice long answer--at work--and thought I posted it, but... argh! I'll try again later.

Squidley - My anti-comment spam software prevents comments with too many links from being posted without approval.

That's a relief. BTW, I forgot to mention Steve Sailer for lots of articles on the relation between race and IQ (and more--he's prolific).

I found a mistake in my first long post (starts with "DKelSmith, I consider you to be an honorable person"). The Army cutoff for IQ is 92; average black IQ in the US is 85. This means that a significant number of blacks--more than half--are barred from military service.

The idea that only poor dummies sign up to serve is not only a slap in the face of the brave men and women of our armed forces, but demonstrably false for at least the "dumb" part. Furthermore, where I work (a military base), they've all been tested again for even higher aptitude, and there are a lot of smart people here. Finally, I know many middle-class folks in the service, so the poor stereotype is also wrong.

Man, am I all over the map here or what?

Squidley,

My first intent at going in the Army was to take a break between High School and college and see the world. I had an MOS of 31U (It has now been changed to 31U), which was unit level commo at the time had a 3 year enlistment. At the MEPS station they brought about 30 of us into a room to take the DLAB because they were short on linguists. Some portion of our ASVAB score qualified us to be considered for this MOS. Laugh at me if I am way off the mark, because that was 16 years ago, but it seems that I got a 142 or something like that. They were short Linguists in Arabic, Chinese, Korean, and another language. My score would have allowed me to change my MOS to a 6 year enlistment, and change my MOS on the spot before shipping to Basic. I told them I would if I could become a Spanish Linguist. (I took 4 years of spanish in high school.) They told me they didn't NEED any Spanish linguists. So I told them I wasn't interested in any other languages. Plus I wasn't sure about doubling my enlistment time. (Looking back at my 18 year old self I would love to be able bitch slapped myself.) I met a contractor in Korea back in March when I was doing the Foal Eagle Joint warfighter with the ROK Army in South Korea. This guy went out to California to language school and picked up the language. He spent 4 years on active duty, got out and STAYED in Korea and makes much more than the average Brigade Commander. So perhaps in a way I did "fail" an IQ test. But, I chalk it up to the teenage stupidity that many 18 year olds show.

Dkelsmith,

Well, you were a foolish 18-year-old, not a dumb one. I think we all were (I know I was!). You could still be a FAO, but the competition is fierce. Then again, you're rapidly approaching 20 years, and maybe you want to do something else.

I just noticed something you wrote earlier:

You do contend that whites do better than blacks on IQ tests across the board, I would not dispute that.

Actually, that's not what I contend. What I contend is something far more radical in today's PC world of "equality." I contend that, as a group, blacks are less intelligent than whites.

What's your first reaction? "That's not right!" "How racist!" "It's test-taking ability, not intelligence!" All valid reactions, and all demonstrably false.

It is an uncomfortable thing to say/hear/read/think, and I did not come to this conclusion overnight. I wanted to believe in the meme of the day, that we are equal in ability (etc.). But the facts plainly show otherwise.

I cannot possibly do justice to this idea here. This article, though long, gives an excellent account of why this position is not only true, but not racist, and why test-taking ability is not at the heart of the matter. Books include The Bell Curve, IQ and the Wealth of Nations, and Race Differences in Intelligence. As noted above, Steve Sailer has written intelligently, extensively, and compassionately on this and related topics.

I fought this idea for a long time, but now that I accept it, I understand many things that were not clear before. I still struggle with it at times, always making sure that my thoughts and comments do not delve into racism, which is reprehensible. Statistics cannot account for every individual, and there are many intelligent blacks and unintelligent whites. Ultimately, different abilities does not mean different value as people. We need to pursue policies that take reality into account, and until we can wrap our minds around this reality, we will continue to have Affirmative Action and other detrimental, immoral policies afflicting us.

Squidley1, as long as people will think that melanin concentration may have an impact on brain activity, they will be called racists. And if you think that people with black skin are all from the same race, and if you think that this race is inferior to the white one, why are you afraid to be called a racist?

What's your definition of racism ? I read one : The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Do you really think you're not racist ?

And if you persist to categorize people with their melanin concentration, you should be familiar with the Flyn effect.
You heard about the continued year-on-year rise of IQ test scores, don't you ? And that the gap between black and white is smaller in UK than in US, for example?
There is evidence from Scandinavian countries that IQ scores rose even more, 20 points per generation, following the austerity of occupation during World War II. Have black people always been considered equal to white people in your country? Or is their condition going better and better ?

What's your first reaction? "That's not right!" "How racist!" "It's test-taking ability, not intelligence!" All valid reactions, and all demonstrably false.

Squidley,

You won't know my reaction to this, because your opinion is just that. Your opinion. I am not going to get a bee in my bonnet because this is what you assert. If you think that whites on the whole are more intelligent than blacks, (I assume you mean Negros who can trace their ancestry to sub-saharn Africa.), then so be it. Have your opinion as to why whites score better than blacks on IQ tests. I could assert mine, but they would be just the same as yours..."unlettered". I am not a cultural anthropologist, a Psychiatrist, or a medical researcher who delves into the physiology of the human brain, and I suspect you are not either.

Along those same lines, there are credentialed researchers with equally impressive records in the same field that disagree. This isn't laws of gravity, physics, or motion, this is a research into an area that produces subjective results. If you are expecting me to get angry, call you names, and go tit for tat with you about something, then that is not going to happen. I have seen some compelling arguments on VDare.com, but I have also seen some points of view that could have easily have come from a urine-soaked vagrant as well.

You have given me your opinion, at length, in a respectful manner, so that is all that I can ask for from you. Great discussion. Once again, Happy Father's Day to all whom it applies.

Squidley,

Please don`t lay that " Blacks as a group are less intelligent then whites" on us anymore. If this is your belief , so be it but this is the type of racism that far to many people want to believe & have perpetuated for years.

The black community has been held in educational bondage for generation`s in this country, conditioned to believe themselves of less then equal mental ability. That is until the Colin Powell`s, Condaleeza Rice`s ,Judge Thomas`s & countless others who have destroyed that long standing myth challenged the system & won.

Deepset cultural racism dies hard , even when people think themselves free from it. The white community has been conditioned for generations to believe in a superiority that just is not true.There are differances in education , in opportunities to learn , in acceptance by society. These are all artificial & implanted by centuries of cultural deepset racism however benevolent one tempers it to be today.

In today`s world, it is a far better thing to focus on the equality of opportunity, the education of the most talented , the selection of the most qualified individuals with developed abilities to meet the challenges this nation faces going forward into the future.

If we do this & stay true to these principles the last vestiges of cultural racism will fall & the fallacy of a percieved intelligence gap defined by racial extraction will be exposed.

I am a white American who learned from experience that I was wrong , I was once a victim of cultural racism & almost lost the love of my oldest daughter because of it. Thank God, I was given a chance to see what was really important & now have the love of my daughter back.

When on my birthday & fathers day I recieve & read the personalized message on the card `s from her, I thank God in his wisdom for the help to open my heart & eyes to what is important. Nothing in my life has been more precious then that.

Prosper wrote,

as long as people will think that melanin concentration may have an impact on brain activity, they will be called racists

I'm trying to treat two different ideas separately, and you keep putting them back together. One is that race exists, and that it has real effects on who people are. The other is racism, the belief that one race is superior or inferior to another. Can you see that these are not the same?

if you think that people with black skin are all from the same race

I don't. I recommended you read something by Cavalli-Sforza--did you? Let me put it simply for you: there are five races indiginous to Africa: North Africans, Sub-Saharan Africans ("blacks"), pygmies, Khoisan, and Malays. Pygmies and Khoisan might also be considered black, as might Dalits and Australian Aborigines, as well as some Papuan peoples. Doesn't make them the same race. If that's your point, why don't you say it?

My point is that race is far more than skin color, and incorporates a constellation of features, of which skin color is merely the most obvious. I'm tired of repeating myself, so kindly get it into your head.

if you think that [the black race] race is inferior to the white one

I would thank you for refraining from putting words in my mouth. Have you missed the parts where I repudiate racism? Let me make it crystal-clear:

I do not think that any one race is superior to another. Different, yes. Inherently more valuable/superior/better, NO. Got it?

This is how far liberalism/leftism have gone. I cannot even point out what is there for anyone to see--that race exists--without having to defend myself from such scurrilous charges. And in Prosper's next comment we see why:

[Definition of racism]: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others

I don't believe that the first part (race accounts for differences in human character and ability) belongs here. This belief isn't racist; it's common sense!

A couple of examples:

Whites and Asians are, in general, more reserved than blacks and Hispanics. Look at dance and music for expressions of this. Blacks are, in general, good athletes. Look at the proportion of blacks on US pro sports teams for a testament to this. If you put a little thought into it, you can find your own examples.

I would limit racism to the second part: "the belief that ... a particular race is superior to others." I find this belief repugnant, and its practioners have no place in any society.

I know about the Flynn effect. What's the relevance?

Ah, DKelSmith--a far finer conversation partner than Prosper! DKelSmith wrote:

You won't know my reaction to this

I wasn't actually asking for your personal reaction; it was a rhetorical device. I also was not trying to provoke you, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. In fact, I would have lost a great deal of respect for you had you responded by name-calling (etc.). If anything, I am all the more impressed by you, and am happy that we have been able to discuss this calmly and intelligently. (BTW, I hope you had a happy Father's Day. I know that's a holiday you'll have to forgo next year in the name of your duty, and we thank you for your sacrifice.)

You are correct in that I am not a specialist in biometrics, etc. However, I do have a Ph.D., and that trained me to do research, and to apply critical thinking. I also have a strong background in the hard sciences, so I learned not to let theory stand in the way of facts. I have reached my conclusions through these filters.

You are absolutely right that experts disagree. Furthermore, I'm sure you can appreciate how hard it can be to conduct research in an emotionally-charged field like this. You also know how extraordinarily PC the US is, and how difficult it is to merely criticize a minority, regardless of the egregiousness of the behavior (Cynthia McKinney and her cop-punching come to mind). Still, a dozen years after its publication, The Bell Curve has not only not been refuted, but more studies agreeing with its basic thesis have come out.

Here's a real-life application of those findings. If blacks, as a group, are less intelligent, and therefore less able to obtain high-end jobs, then they will find working-class jobs. We, as a nation, should do all we can to ensure that all members of the working class, black, white, or otherwise, can earn a living wage. However, mass illegal immigration cuts the wages at the bottom by as much as 8%. Importing illegal aliens to undercut the wages of the working class makes life worse for our fellow citizens. This is the most humanitarian reason I can think of for keeping illegal aliens out.

Don't think it happens? Look at New Orleans: blacks, many of whom lost jobs and homes to Katrina, started rebuilding the city, but when the Mexicans came to town, the blacks were booted off the job.

Anyway, I sense you are weary of this thread, and I think I've had enough for now, too. I'm looking forward to more on-line conversations with you.

Dudley1,

For the sake of argument, let's say that you're right and I'm wrong, and that all races are equally intelligent. How does this explain the extraordinary performance of Ashkenazi Jews in Nobel prizes, and their overrepresentation in the legal, medical, and managerial professions? How does it explain the disproportionate Asian presence in higher education and the sciences? How does it explain continued black, Hispanic, and Native American under-representation in higher education, even with Affirmative Action?

Now, what if my position is correct? Then we have an explanation for these facts.

Let me repeat: I am pointing out differences, but I am not making a value judgment based on those differences. We are all God's children, and all have value in His eyes. We should take this into the secular world as well, and treat all equally under the law. All should have equal opportunities and equal rights, with special opportunities and special rights for none. This is, in fact, fundamental to the American system. It's what I've been calling procedural equality.

Dudley1 wrote,

it is a far better thing to focus on the equality of opportunity, the education of the most talented , the selection of the most qualified individuals with developed abilities to meet the challenges this nation faces going forward into the future.

With which I agree 100%. One way to do this is to abolish Affirmative Action. Why? Because AA is racist. How? It selects less-qualified protected minorities and discriminates against more-qualified whites and Asians. It is unfair and un-American. AA is based on the notion of substansive equality, the idea that everyone has the same abilities.

Do you really believe that everyone has the same abilities? If that were true, then anyone should be able to play basketball like Michael Jordan, anyone should be able to become an M.D., anyone should be able to play cello like Yo-Yo Ma. What nonsense!

We all know that some traits run in families. Some families are tall, others have lots of redheads, and others get cancer and die in their 40s and 50s. Well, what is a race but an extremely extended family? Is it so hard to believe that, for example, Ashkenazi Jews are susceptible to certain diseases due to their genes and not their religion, diet, or environment? I hope not.

As it turns out, intelligence is highly heritable, with 40 to 80% of it due to genetic factors. The 15-point gap between black and white IQ test scores remains even with black children adopted by white families. I was devastated the first time I read that, because I had to let go of my liberal illusions. Racism and environment can't explain that result away.

I know that many people talk about intelligence differences among races for the purpose of promoting their racist views. I find this reprehensible. I do it so that we can rationally discuss the fallacy of substansive equality. Once we can acknowledge that race is real, and that there are real differences among the races, then we can start to see why, for example, unlimited Mexican immigration, legal and illegal, is harmful to the US. We can discuss why Affirmative Action is harmful, not just to blacks and whites, but to everyone else as well. We can remove the rose-colored glasses of liberalism and make public policy based on facts, instead of wishful thinking.

Squidley, I'd rather answer you by mail, but it turns out that don't work...

You wrote "I don't believe that the first part (race accounts for differences in human character and ability) belongs here. This belief isn't racist; it's common sense! "

this one made me laugh... ;-)
"I'm not racist, definition of racism is just common sense!"

BWAHAHAHAH

"Whites and Asians are, in general, more reserved than blacks and Hispanics. Look at dance and music for expressions of this. Blacks are, in general, good athletes. Look at the proportion of blacks on US pro sports teams for a testament to this. If you put a little thought into it, you can find your own examples."

Yep : Frogs stinks, Italians are lazy thieves, Germans are nazis.

I would limit racism to the second part: "the belief that ... a particular race is superior to others." I find this belief repugnant, and its practioners have no place in any society.

So you don't think a more intelligent race is a superior race ?

I know about the Flynn effect. What's the relevance?
If you admit IQ improves with social conditions, you understand why black people in US have a lower one than whites. I don't know your history well, but blacks are allowed to study like whites just since the 60's, right? And that's why the gap between black and white is smaller in UK than in US. Flynn showed a nutrition effect too... Nutition, Africa, you see where it can go ?

Prosper, please find one comment--one--where I say that members of one race are worth more or less than another, where I say that one race is superior or inferior in intrinsic value.

Now, find the comments where I explicitly reject racism. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Here's another one for you. If I were a white supremecist, would I be going on about how Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians are more intelligent than whites? (Yes, I'm white.)

Here's my main point: how do you explain the massively different outcomes, in all aspects of life, of people of different races? Racism and environment have their limits. In America at least, the worst modern racists are black, and even the native-born poor are in far better shape than they were a generation ago. Heck, they're better off now than they were a decade ago.

My explanation is simple: different races have different innate characteristics. One of those characteristics is, whether we like it or not, intelligence, which has been shown to be highly heritable. And yes, of course there are exceptions. Go learn some statistics, look at the numbers, and then come back.

The Flynn effect is interesting, but less relevant than you think. Malnutrition and disease are definite factors in the third world, and responsible research takes that into account, but you wouldn't know that, because you would rather sit there with your superior attitude than go read a book.

What superior attitude? The liberal superiority complex, wherein liberals compete with each other to show that they are more liberal than other liberals by tolerating unacceptable behavior by minorities of any kind. You French are masters of the game, with your mass importation of Moslems and your refusal to recognize that they were the ones rioting, that they are gang-raping French girls, that they are desecrating churches, that they are pushing their Islamic agenda on what was once a great culture. That same liberal superiority complex blinds those afflicted with it from seeing what is plainly visible: that different people have different abilities.

I gotta go now. We can continue if you like, but I'm not sure that there would be any point to doing so.

Squidley,

The principle reason for the superior performance of the Askenazi Jews with regard to Nobel Prizes , presence in the legal, medical & managerial fields as well as the performance by so many of the Asians students is quite simple , it is not a big secret. Their parents do not accept anything but a superior performance from their children while in school & do not let them fritter their time away on meaningless recreational pursuits during off educational time frames.

These people are pushed , driven & are expected to succeed in the educational period of their lives to prepare them to excell when they become Adults & join the working world. Given this indoctrination would you expect any other result?

As to so many of the dis-advantaged groups, there is no cohesive family or community goal orientation based on excellence in education with emphasis to promote presence in the Professions. With a system of reward or existance for these people via a welfare system that accomodates them instead of challenging them to excellance as well as allowing a waste of their time during the formative years , again would you expect any other result?

The truth is there are exceptions which prove this to be true, some of the racial minorities for which you seem to attribute a lower level of intelligence have success stories to tell, they have a common denominator in that a parent or some mentor inspired them to succeed & would not accept anything other then excellance from them . Also, there are failures from within the Jewish as well as the Asian communities for the lack of direction or inspiration when it was most critical.

The only differance as I see it is the drive to succeed is instilled in them young before the compulsion to waste their talent becomes dominant.

Squidley, when you call me liberal, you close the debate. You believe in the same generalities about liberals than about white or black people. You always put people in boxes...

Again : when you said whites are more intelligent than black, that's equivalent to whites are superior to blacks. I told you that once already, but you don't react on that.

Please give me a valid e-mail address, i will carry on without going too far off-topic...

Prosper,

If you believe that stating a difference is equivalent to making a judgment, then we don't have anything more to discuss.

Notice that I am also saying that East Asians are more intelligent than whites, and that Ashkenazi Jews are more intelligent than East Asians. Why don't you get upset over this?

I wanted to post a couple of ideas that I swiped from here. One is that the truth will not necessarily make us happy. I gave up some of my happy naivete when I accepted that people are different and that race is responsible for many of those differences.

Another idea is that most people never think, they just recycle what they've been told. The brilliant yet anti-semitic Henry Ford said, "thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." So--have you actually thought about your views, or are you just recycling what you've been told?

I called you a liberal because you spout liberal dogma about everyone being "equal." If you meant procedural equality, then I'd be in total agreement. However, since you mean substansive equality, which is a poisonous idea that has as its inevitable consequence the destruction of Western society, I disagree. Read about that here and here.

Finally, I use a non-functional e-mail address so that spammers won't bother me any more than they already do--which is way too much. I also do it to preserve my anonymity. I am not ashamed of my ideas, but I know for a fact that I will never get another job in academia if I let it be known that I do not adhere to the prevailing liberal dogma. Sorry.

Exactly why is is racist to say that average intelligence for blacks is lower than average intelligence than whites, but it is perfectly OK to say that blacks are better athletes than whites? Races are different. Various races have traits that make them superior to other races in certain areas. This is not racism. This is pointing out observations. Squidley is not saying that whites are superior to blacks. There are many blacks who are extremely intelligent. There are many whites who are great athletes. Believing that all races are the same is nothing but liberal, multiculturist bullshit. Prosper, the brainwashing has worked on you.

Thank you, Denny. A voice of reason in the wasteland!

dudley1, the hypothesis you promoted--the influence of culture on outcome--is persuasive because it's comforting. It makes us feel good to think that everyone really is the same deep down, and the only thing that keeps people from reaching their maximum potential is external forces, like a lack of encouragement or opportunity.

There's just one wee flaw with that hypothesis: reality. Jews account for about 2% of the population of the US. In spite of this tiny number, Jews account for 40% of US Nobel Prize winners in science and economics; 20% of professors at leading universities; 21% of high-level civil servants; 40% of the partners in leading law firms in NY and DC; 26% of the reporters, editors, and executives of major print and broadcast media; 59% of the directors of the 50 top-grossing movies from 1965 to 1982; and 58% of the TV directors, writers, and producers with two or more shows under their belts. (Swiped from here.)

Do you honestly believe that an encouraging environment alone can account for those results?

Here's another couple of facts for you. IQ tests were originally designed to show that bilingualism in immigrant children was intellectually harmful. IQ tests have also been charged with being culturally biased. How is it, then, that bilingual Chinese immigrant kids did better than the monolingual natives? How is it, then, that blacks score poorer than whites on the non-cultural parts of the test, the parts that test abstract reasoning ability?

Now, I have never denied that there are success stories among intellectually-disadvantaged groups. Average IQ means that half the people are on the right half of the bell curve, and some of them are going to be gifted. But pointing out the abysmally small number of highly intelligent blacks only highlights the fact that they are statistical outliers.

Addressing the Flynn effect again, why is it that even analyses corrected to take it into account show no significant change over time in the gaps between black and white, and white and East Asian?

Here's an intellectual experiment: try assuming that race is real, and that one of the way races differ is in average intelligence. I'm not asking you to agree with it, but just to try it as a different approach. See if this assumption explains what you observe better than the feel-good environmental approach.

Denny wrote "but it is perfectly OK to say that blacks are better athletes than whites?"

no, it's false and racist too...

If your reference is 100m or Basketball, you can believe that. But if you're interrested in swimming, pole jump, marathon, fencing, cycling, decathlon, judo, skiing, rowing, weight lifting, javelin, you would see it's not true.

drop the blinkers...

This topic has pressed some very emotional buttons here. I have no intention of making anyone uncomfortable, but if your buttons were pushed, have you stopped to consider why?

Oh, and Prosper, some of the best runners in the world, short and long distances, are black.

There are reasons for black absence from swimming and winter sports, but I doubt you're interested, because you would have to acknowledge that race exists.

Prosper - Sigh. Squidley is not saying that whites are superior to blacks because they test higher for intelligence. That is just one trait. Women have faster reflexes than men. Does that make them superior? No. It makes them superior in that particular genetic trait. Different races are superior at different things. Blacks are obviously superior than whites at running and jumping. Does that make blacks superior to whites. Yes. At running and jumping. Aaaaaaarrrrrggggghhhh! It is not racist to point out that different races are better than others at different things. It is not sexist to point out that there are differences between men and women. As I said earlier, the liberal multiculturist diversity brainwashing worked on you. Your teachers would be proud.

There's an excellent article by Steven Pinker in The New Republic (requires free registration). In it, he adds more Ashkenazi Jewish achievements, debunks the myth of a studious culture, and presents research results that show: IQ is real, race exists, IQ tests have predictive power, and intelligence is highly heritable.

He also said:

In recent decades, the standard response to claims of genetic differences has been to deny the existence of intelligence, to deny the existence of races and other genetic groupings, and to subject proponents to vilification, censorship, and at times physical intimidation. Aside from its effects on liberal discourse, the response is problematic. Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it, and progress in neuroscience and genomics has made these politically comforting shibboleths (such as the non-existence of intelligence and the non-existence of race) untenable.

I'm not an expert in the field, but what about a professor of psychology at Harvard?

I am not ashamed of my ideas, but I know for a fact that I will never get another job in academia if I let it be known that I do not adhere to the prevailing liberal dogma.

I'm not an expert in the field, but what about a professor of psychology at Harvard?

See? It's possible...

Pinker can say (nearly) anything he wants because he has tenure. I do not, so my freedom of speech is limited. How do I know this? I have a friend whose political writings on his blog cost him a job offer, even though he doesn't talk about politics in the classroom (and would have little reason to do so, given his speciality).

Wow. You guys are still going? Remeind me not to give you all Energizer batteries for stocking-stuffers this Christmas. This is one of those debates that will be ongoing because everyone thinks that they are right about this. I think that it is good that there were no breaches of decorum with this one. Generally when replies go back and forth for this long on a heated subject someone is going to lose it. I am glad to see that it did not happen here.

Thanks, DKelSmith. I think that the heart of civilized discussion is being able to disagree without being disagreeable. On rare occasion I do a little name-calling on GOC 'cuz that's the culture here, but I prefer to blither endlessly, with good manners.

You're right about why this keeps going on, but I'd like to think that I have facts on my side, while at least some others are appealing to emotion.

DKelSmith, it occurred to me that if it was as difficult as it was for me, a properly-indoctrinated tolerant liberal SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy), to overcome my brainwashing and see what the facts and figures have to say, I can only imagine how difficult it might be for you, since it's your race that ends up in a much lower position intellectually, and therefore ends up impugning you, at least indirectly. I imagine that it also contradicts much of your personal experience with your family, friends, and colleagues.

So what to do? Well, I am certainly in no position to tell you what to do, but I would like to quote Aristotle: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." I do it often, but only sometimes do I end up changing my mind as a result. Just a thought.

Denny wrote : "Blacks are obviously superior than whites at running and jumping"

Squidley1 wrote : "I'd like to think that I have facts on my side, while at least some others are appealing to emotion."

But it's hard for you guys to admit facts...

Last Olympic Games...

Winners of marathon : Stephano Baldini, a "white" italian and Mizuki Noguchi, a "yellow" japanese.

High Jump : Stephan Holm, a "white" sweedish, Yelena Slesarenko, a "white" russian

Russia was second behind USA in athletics. Sweden was 4th. Do you think there were lot of "black" people among them ?

So what about this facts?

Uh, gee Prosper, you got us there with your brilliant understanding of statistics! (sarcasm mode off)

Statistically, those individual results are insignificant. Besides, the Olympics are an excellent example of how environment affects a particular outcome. It takes a lot to train an athlete to compete at the highest levels, and developed countries have a much greater capacity to dedicate time and talent and money to such endeavors than developing countries do.

This is why comparison within a country is more meaningful, and why the example of US sports, especially pro sports, is more useful because the playing field is much closer to level than it is internationally.

Prosper - Two events. It would be interesting to see the racial makeup of the US track and field team. I would bet that blacks are overweighted. All we have to do here in the US is look at our professional sports. The NBA is majority black. Most of the skill positions in the NFL (Running back, wide receiver, and defensive back) are almost all made up of black players. More and more quarterbacks are black. But once again you're missing the point. There are racial differences. This does not mean that one race is inferior to another. It just means that on average some races do things better than others just like some individuals do things better than others.

This thread has gone on long enough. I'm closing it and we can resume this discussion another time.