The skipper over at Barking Moonbat Had a good one today on rules for trolls. Its more of a way of defining them than rules for them to follow.

Denny .....

Not a real big problem, just call them muslim immigrants from one of Frances former colonies in Africa & everything will be OK.

I'm sure you all here would like this guy (Georges Freche). Fortunately here in France he has been fired.

What makes you think we would like any socialist, Prosper?

Prosper,
We here would say nadda, however Barrack and Hilarity would probably embrace the guy.
If you absolutely want to send him our way, ship him Parcel Post ground, and remember the 70 lb package limit.

I don't know what the French definition for "racism" is, but Prosper's definition is "thinking that race exists." So anyone who thinks that blacks are not the same as whites are not the same as Asians are not the same as (fill in the blank) is a racist.

Nice way to smear your opponents and block all possibility of discussion.

I guess it's not race but society, then, that accounts for the huge disparity in the behavior of the various alleged races. It's society that accounts for differences between children too young to read. It's society that accounts for the discrepencies in susceptibility to genetic diseases.

Nice theory. Too bad the facts don't fit it. But when did that ever stop a Marxist, socialist, or liberal?

Squidley, your thoughts on this topic always interest me. I prefer to use one word to describe what others are afraid to realize are the differences between us "Evolution".

But when did that ever stop a Marxist, socialist, or liberal?

Another nice way to smear your opponents and block all possibility of discussion, don't you think ?

all possibility of discussion

Historically, the possibility of discussion with you, Prosper, is 0. Point 0. Zero, zero, zero, zero. Zero. Add a few more zeros. Run it through a supercomputer, and still nothing but zeros.

Unix-bug, you're the only one who need a supercomputer to add zeros !

BWAHAHAHAHA !!

Ray,

I think that's a perfectly appropriate way to look at it. Whites and NE Asians had to survive about 18,000 years of ice age. That meant planning for the future, delaying gratification, males investing in their offspring, and--fortuitously--large enough populations for the high-IQ mutation to develop and propagate.

Those in temperate and tropical climates could count on food being (more) available year-round, so they didn't have to plan. They knew they would be able to find food tomorrow, so they didn't need to keep some of today's food in reserve, and so there was no need to delay gratification. Women could raise children on their own, so men spilled their seed in whoever was willing (and sometimes unwilling) without regard to the consequences for the offspring.

These same patterns are still apparent today to anyone who is willing to throw off the blinders of Political Correctness and look at the world as it actually is.

Prosper, of course, will have nothing to do with it.

As for the labeling, Prosper, do you deny that you are a liberal? There is no discussion possible with Marxists or other true leftists--just look at what happened to dissenters in the Soviet Union. Socialists and liberals usually allow some debate, but veer out of the accepted realm and they soon spew out the epithets that render their bearer untouchable: racist, xenophobe, sexist, etc.

It's amazing that liberals' brains don't implode due to cognitive dissonance: they espouse "tolerance" and "diversity," but as soon as someone comes along with a different, non-liberal point of view, they become what they claim they deplore: intolerant demagogues who cannot abide diversity.

I understand I must be liberal (in english, because this word means libertarian in french !), aka barking moonbat on this site. You talked about tolerance ? I'm sure you call your democrat leaders socialists, marxists or "commies". So, intolerance or ignorance ?

Did you notice this on the BBC news linked page?
Last Updated: Wednesday, 22 March 2006, 13:47 GMT
- rather stale 'news'...

Prosper, neither word applies. It's more like the phrase "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck" (No disrespect to the ducks for comparing them to Dimocrats=communist=socialist=marxists

Prosper,

While many Democrats are socialists (to greater or lesser degrees), I don't think any of them are actual communists or Marxists. Still, leftism has an undeniable influence on all Western politics.

One enormous difference between the political left and right in America is that on the right, they let people talk--even if they don't agree with the other's views--while on the left, views that are out of line with mainstream liberal thought are either ignored or shouted down.

Squidley......

I agree with your comment regarding the socialist content of our dimocratic politicians, but the one belief they all share to a great degree, it is the birthright of properly educated liberal democrat`s to organize, direct & control the education, daily activities, destiny & welfare of the American people. They do believe themselves to be a superior class to the majority of society, kind of an aristocracy if you will.

To this they champion a revision of our constitution if not it`s destruction to remove most of the right`s they are forbidden to tamper with . They honestly believe in a manifest destiny which establish`s a pure liberal socialist society under their direction is in the best interests of all of mankind starting with the United States.

I know you have seen their belief`s in action , be it the environment, education, individual rights,or global warming. I actually had a discussion with one sympathetic to the Earth Liberation Front concerning animal rights ......when I posed the question "If animals have all these right`s you champion ,why did god give man dominion over the animal kingdom?" .... the answer was "If there is a god , he made a mistake & we are attempting to correct it".

It could be arrogance or stupidity, it does not matter for it is the mindset of these people which make them dangerous. They are against individalism & free choice, a collective society under their control or direction is their ambition.

Strange argument... Do you think God gave white people dominion over indians or black people in your country in 19th century ?

Prosper.......

Very strange comment indeed coming from someone in France,a country with a very long history for colonial enslavement of people who are primitive & usually of another color such as black or yellow in the 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th & continuing today in the 21st century.

Then to is that embarrassing period for French involvement in North America with the colonization of Canada, the western frontier of the American colonies of Great Britian & the Louisiana Territories ( Purchased/Freed from France by the USA). The French brought forced religious conversion, Indian subjucation & theft of goods/property from those native populations in the areas of North America under their domination. Why don`t you elaborate on this aspect for French domination?

Don`t preach a guilt trip onto the United States when your country was one of the leading colonial powers who colonized,plundered & raped so much of the world in recent history & still have an active colonial system today with no plan for eventual freedom of the native peoples in those colonies.Doesn`t this offend your sensibilities?

Yes,it is true the United States in it`s westward march across the continent did take advantage of the native American Indian tribes & did take their land outright or in violation of signed treaties. But.....who taught us how to do this? Do you think France is blameless even as you still practice colonialism? You mention the black people under our domination during the 19th century. Who brought them here in chain`s as slave`s to serve their captor`s?...... It was the europeans including the French. Hello! is it beginning to dawn on you the origin for colonial slavery of in the new world was European by design & practice? Who was it that fought a civil war which resulted in their freedom? It certainly was not the French now was it.

The history of all civilizations has been the domination of others by the super powers of a given era, This does not validate the practice, this is just reality as it happened. To this France was & is a major player.

You missed the point entirely.
I could have take the french example. I just picked one more familiar to you.

I try again : do you think God gave white people dominion over caraibeans or black people in France in 15th, 16th, 17, 18th and 19th century ?

You missed the point entirely

And there where have liberalism in action folks. Unable to defend a position, they come back with "you missed my point". Liberal talking points 101. They must have a book out about this or something.

Prosper......

No.....God did not give white people dominion over black or any other people, this was an accomplishment whatever your viewpoint is by those who imposed their will onto the people you referance. We still bear the shame to this day for that which our ancestors did.

However regarding black people, you need to understand that it was not just white people who were responsible for this deed. Yes,white european`s initiated this, but the arabs with a long history in slave trading ran the on the shore slave procurement operations & resident black`s comprised the majority of the slaving gangs who actually seized the African tribes people who became the slaves brought to the new world.

While I consider even one person taken by force into bondage wrong, it is also true that 80% of those slaves brought to the new world did not come to the American colonies. The point is the slave trade was not a unique American issue, more properly it was primarily a European undertaking. That fact does not excuse what the ancestors of today`s American`s did. Racism has it`s roots in many cultures across the entire world, some religion`s & people today still embrace as well practice it.

We went far away of the point I wanted to reach (Ray, there's a playground behind you, go & look for me, I may be already there).
Dudley, my point is : you cannot tell "if animals should have this rights, God would have provide it to them", as you could not have said "if Black people should have rights, God woul have provide". You understand my point ? That's why I called your argument strange. With such argument, you cannot change anything on earth. Remember, So help me God !
Eh Ray, come here good boy ! New game for you : I throw an argument, you run, run, run, and run, you search something (find nothing, of course) and you come back to me.

Prosper,

1. I do not know what point you were attempting to make , I suspect you don`t either.

2.As to me stating that animals have rights.... My only comment was a biblical referance in that it states God gave man dominion over all the animals of the earth. The person I was in discussion with was the one who claimed God made a mistake & his group was correcting it. I just referanced a typical liberal belief of liberal over divine interpretation to illustrate the arrogance of the leftwing liberal.

3.How did you reach a conclusion that blacks had inferance in my original comment/ None was there, my answer to your question of god given dominion over black`s & Caribbean natives in France should have clarified that he did not & any belief to the contrary was a human rather then divine revelation.I thought my comments made it perfectly clear racism was a human trait across all cultures & that I was in disageement with that position.

4.Where in my comment`s is any referance for attempting to change anything on earth with my argument if that is what you want to call it? I am perfectly happy to live my life in accordance to that which I believe God has ordained. An agnostic would say all things unto themselves in their own time. Basically the same point of view but I prefer the belief life on this earth has a purpose to be revealed at the time of reckoning.

5. You have not traveled far from the point you wanted to reach, you have traveled in circles just as would a man with one foot chained to the floor......a lot of steps but no distance traveled with the destination not yet in sight.

My bad, I guess.

Never mind, this argument was not at all about racism but about faith and the place of God in our acts.

Sometimes I wish I could write english more fluently...

Prosper,
If you do not believe in God, how do you fully explain our existence? Look at the complexity of just a single cell, let alone the multiple perplexities of humans. Look at human birth, the embryo is foreign tissue in the host, the mother, yet the host does not attack it. when the child is fully developed, it triggers a response in the host that causes birth. If tissue from the child is introduced into the body of the mother after birth, the mothers body will attack and reject that tissue immediately, tissue that it hosted for nine months. Look at the complexity of our food chain. every link is essential, from the trees that provide oxygen, to the bacteria that rot fruit back into the soil. If any part of the cycle did not exist, life would not exist. Look at the wonders of the galaxie. If our rock was a little closer, or a little further from the sun, life could not exist on this planet. Lok at the function of the moon in creating tides that keep the oceans in motion and thus prevent stagnation.
Look at the clear evidence of flooding in some of the highest regions of the globe, to know that they were at one time submerced in water, but now are high ground. Look at the fossils recorded in that high ground. it speaks of cataclysmic events. those animals didn't simply die and sink and then get burried whole. Life doesn't happen that way. When there are major fish kills, the fish float to the surface and are consumed by predators, bacteria, or other fish. You don't find them in fossil beds largly intact from the moment of entrapment.
A power greater than us created this rock, and made it habitable. That power sparked life, and formed it into seperate creatures, each with its own place in the world system, and its own duty. He then created man and gave man powers beyond all animals, the power to reason. So study what you believe and why you believe it. Give justification to your reasoning, if not here, at least be honest with your self. Test you beliefs to ensure that they hold true, because to live a lie is not becoming of a woman or a man.

Prosper.....

Actually you do fairly well with fluency in your english composition.....For sure you do much better in English then I could ever hope to do in French.

I suppose it is indeed difficult to formulate an idea or make a point in a second language when the person you are in a debate with is native to that language & familiar with the topic of the moment.It does place you at a distinct disadvantage.

It is obvious that I believe we are all subservient to the will of god & one day must account for our action s on this earth, I think you feel the same. As to daily interaction`s & personal perspective for world event`s we differ......But that is because I am right & you are wrong. Now don`t hit the keyboard , that was supposed to be a joke.

Anyway Prosper have a nice day.

Jeremy, I do believe in God. For the record, I'm a catholic, and we'll celebrate the first communion of my eldest child this year (for Denny : we'll drink a Corton-Charlemagne from her birth year, 1998).

Dudley, I got it!
;-)

So nice to see debate progressing smoothly and politely, unlike in the thread for "Back to the Slopes."

Dudley1, I must take exception to one of your statements. In reference to the "dominion" of white people over blacks and others, you wrote:

"We still bear the shame to this day for that which our ancestors did."

No. We. Do. NOT. It's history, not our fault. We personally have no connection with slavery or colonization or any related historical explotation. No connection whatsoever. The thought that we do is a liberal idea, tied in to the "permanent white racial guilt" meme.

Though the deeds of our ancestors are not our own, we can still be proud of all the greatness that whites have achieved, including almost all the scientific, medical, artistic, religious, and social advances of the last 3000 years.

Other than that nonsense about our supposed culpability for historical facts, you're pretty much right. Whites brought 11 million black slaves from Africa; the Moslems took 14 million. Moslems also took white slaves from Europe (didn't know that, did you?). In addition to terrorizing the Mediterranian, they went as far afield as England, Ireland, and Iceland!

In European colonies, black slaves were valuable property engaged in useful labor. In Moslem lands, male slaves were usually castrated; only a small fraction survived this brutality. In Moslem lands, female slaves were there for the sexual pleasure of their masters. (Moslems supposedly do not take other Moslems as slaves, though some would argue that since Moslem women are treated as chattel, perhaps they are little better than slaves.) Whites voluntarily ended the slave trade; it had to be imposed on Moslems--by whites. (It seems it didn't quite stick, and Moslems are still holding slaves, even today.)

Prosper,

(Early) congratuations on your child's first communion!

Squidley,Squidley!

Somehow I knew you take exception to this point.....Maybe you do not feel shame for that which your ancestors may have done but I as an American with compassion do. Things we take for granted like knowing our family history,the names of our forefather`s , the country they were born in are not something that million`s of American`s are able to share because of slavery. I won`t go into the pain, degradation, rape & suffering caused by our ancestors to the slaves brought here & still continue`s to a lessor degree today. The strange thing is I know my ancestors had nothing to do with the slave trade in any fashion but I still feel the guilt associated with that despicable chapter in American history.

Yes, I am aware of the slave facts you referance of the moslem obsession for the slave trade. Our excursion into Tripoli was in response to that practice of taking people from all nations as slaves including our seamen by the muslim power`s that be. Their arrogance in asserting that it was a legitimate practice because we were infidels in their viewpoint lead to our marines taking action on the direct order of our president. I`ll bet Pelosi & company probably think that was wrong.

Don`t forget that during the crusade`s one pope thought it a great idea to conduct a childrens crusade on the premise of appealing to the compassionate side of the muslim`s. We all know how that worked out.

Also sir, you are absolutely correct some muslim`s still practice slavery today, ,even the ones who do not feel it is in accordance to the Koran & the teaching`s of Muhammed.The slave trade is particulary common throughout muslim history, when our white european ancestors decided to engage in the practice for cheap labor in the new world ,they found the muslims ready ,able & willing to assist.

I find the entire history of slavery regardless of who took part to have been a vile & despicable practice which stains the history for all of humanity. I`ll not argue the wherewithall about guilt or lack of it for you or anyone else, but all of the advances & inventions the white people have accomplished for the last 3000 years does not excuse to have been associated with it. Going forward into the future we should all remember so as to be sure it does not happen again.

Squidley......

One point I was going to make was; You state that the deeds of our ancestors are not our own, we can be proud of all the greatness achieved by the whites including almost everything for the last 3000 years.......Well! If on one hand you find it acceptable to feed proud about the accomplishment`s of the whites who preceeded all of us , why do you find it illogical to feel shame for those actions which are a discredit to all of humanity?

You can`t have it both ways, if you choose to pat yourself on the back for that which is considered to have been achieving greatness, you must also recognize the dark side of these very same people.I think you protest too much & while you say you are not racist ,you do not recognize in reality you are.Not to the degree which a plantation overseer or Ku Klux Klan member is but racist none the less.

Is this guy a great guy or what ?

Dudley, I think its normal for us to feel some degree of sadness for what our ancestors may or may not have done to the so called slaves, and I can understand where you are coming from with if we don't feel the guilt then we shouldn't feel the pride, but I have to admit, the current "black society" has not shown me that it really matters a rats ass to them that they don't know their heritage. Hell, half or more don't know who their father is, so what the heck do you think they care if they don't know their who their ancestors way back then were. I think it's wise for us to "learn" from our previous transgressions, but we shouldn't feel like we have to pay for the sins of our fathers. At the same time, it is imperative for our survival that we realize that were in not for the hard work, ingenuity and bravery of those same fathers, the world and our lives would not be what they are today.
Prosper, your comments about playgrounds is scaring me a little bud. Maybe it's the whole translation thing, but I'm wondering about you. If you didn't have young ones about to receive communion, I'd probably call the French police on you. :) BTW, congratulations to your family and your daughter, when I was a kid, I remember that was big stuff for my family when us kids received.

Ray.......

Do not despair, If you look past the black activists who get the LSM attention....Rev`n Jackson,Honest Al Sharpton , their hanger-ons & all the BS programs as promoted by the dimocrats & paid for by us,there is a middle class of black Americans who have by virtue of getting an education & hard work are successful in the integrated society of today`s America. You probably will not see or hear much on the liberal LSM ,read about them in the Liberal press or magazines or hear the NAACP congratulate them for their success. Why?...because they for the most part are Republican & conservative in philosophy. This middle class is steadily increasing & gaining influence, someday they will take the NAACP to task for having accepted a permanent underclass of welfare recipients obligated to the dimocratic party instead of moving for real change.

No we are not responsible for the sins of our forefathers but we do need to be aware of how easy it is for racism to take hold. Yes it is good to reflect on the hard work & achievements of them as well but when that is used as an excuse to dismiss the actions which were so detrimental to those who were enslaved or persecuted well that is just plain unacceptable.

Hey Prosper...Add my congratulations to you & your family as well, family achievement is something to be celebrated.

Regarding slavery, if one takes a closer look, it was actually the lesser of two evils. Without a market for slaves, the enslaved would have been taken out and killed for sport, such was the way of battle in Africa during that time period. Right, wrong, indiffrent, why should I owe any one any thing? My family lost several recent arrivals in the Civil war, So in a way the descendents of slaves owe my family a debt of gratitude.
One also needs to remember that the first slaves brought to the colonies were white. They were the debters of European society.
Slavery still exists in Africa, this time at the hands of Muslims.
Hey Timmy! am I being racist again???

My family lost several recent arrivals in the Civil war, So in a way the descendents of slaves owe my family a debt of gratitude.

Be careful what you wright ! You're not here on the Yankee side !

;-)

Jeremy.......

If you are referring to Indentured Servants,those wishing to travel to the new world for a new life but lacking money for passage could sell themselves in servitude to cover the cost of passage as well as room & board after arrival. The terms were harsh,the length of servitude long, life was onorous, conditions for many abysmal but........there was light at the end of the tunnel for most in that eventually the period of servitude ended & they were free to live & do as they chose. Were some of these people victimized? were some of them tricked into longer periods of servitude? Were the laws in place stacked against them ? The answer to all three questions is yes!

Man`s inhumanity to man was the norm back then, jail for debtors, responsibility unto the next generation for the sins of your elders & a true double standard for the have`s & have nots.

But as I stated there was one huge differance between slavery & indentured servitude in that for the slave, freedom was a dream that never came true while for the indentured servant, it did happen for most.

Those in indentured servatude cvame for a period of seven years. Those who were shipped out from the prisons were most often slaves for life. In any case, the whole system used at that time was wrong.
Slavery in one way has a possible use today. People who are non violent criminals could possible benefit from a period of indentured servitude rather than a stay behind bars with the worst of criminals. I would rather see that than the probation system we have now. One benefit is that the probationers would be forced to obey the rules and would have some one watching them to keep them on the straight and narrow. They would also have a job and a roof over their head. I've seen a few cases where it would have been a better alternative. One person I know of figured out the system, abusedit, and sunk them self. That person has a small daughter who will be raised by an unfit father for the next ten years.

Prosper - Even though I currently live in Georgia, I'm originally from Missouri, which was a border state during the Civil War. All of my ancestors fought on the Union side, so I guess I must be descended from Yankees. Slavery was an abomination. What is an equal abomination is the Dimocrat plantation that poor blacks live on now. A fine example of that was the results of Hurricane Katrina. We had poor blacks who knew nothing but dependence on gummint. Local and state gummint totally failed them. Mayor Asshole was worthless and these gummint dependents just reelected him. After all, it was all Bush's fault. Keep 'em poor. Keep 'em uneducated. Keep 'em dependent on gummint. Keep 'em voting Dimocrat.

Denny.......

As you have painted so clearly, the saddest result of so many years of struggle to attain civil right`s for black citizens in this country is a dimocratic plantation which rewards the Black Race Baiting Povery Pimp`s as long as they deliver the black vote to the dimocratic party so the dimocratic conversion to socialism can continue.

The dimocrats are fully aware of the fact to control 90+% of the black vote however illogical that may be means extraordinary efforts must be made in order to influence the rest of the America voters for the dimocratic position to be overcome.

The second saddest fact is those few times the Republicans have attained real power they frittered it away trying to emulate or appease the dimocrats.The last election was particulary vexing in that the Republican`s had turned the corner & were poised to effect real change until GWB tried to outdo the dimocrats.

It is an ill wind that blows in Washington today, nothing of substance will be accomplished for the next two years......but as you said, Keep-um poor, Keep-um uneducated,Keep-um dependent on gummint & Keep-um voting dimocratic. The country might actually be turning more conservative but the dimocrat`s still know how to play the race card.