Got me a new laptop yesterday and I decided to setup a wireless network. Hooked up the router and followed all the instructions. My desktop worked but not my laptop. Ryan and Sherry stopped in on their way back home from Missouri where Sherry had been doing genealogy research. Ryan had set one up at his house. Turns out the problem with the laptop was an ID ten T problem. Wireless up and running. I can now blog while traveling. I can blog from anywhere in the house. Kewl!
Posted by denny at July 25, 2007 07:46 PMNow you can go 'war driving' (wireless access routes) & you can get access from any Krystal's, bookstore, motels/hotels, coffeeshop, Kroger etc.
I've used 802.11 B/A/G/N for years when out on the road and have yet to pay for WiFi access.
In fact, my router at home has an external 18dBm omnidirectional antenna attached; it used to be WEP-enabled, but I turned that off and now most of the 'hood has 'umbrella-shaped' free wireless coverage from my house.
If the neighbors have the right equipment, they can get 108Mb data-rates for free. I have a pair of repeaters (with highly-directional antennas) stashed in the woods about 1/4 mile from Day's Inn and use their signal for full-duplex communications.
How cool is that? :)
Posted by: DanS. on July 25, 2007 08:12 PMI *hate* those errors in the Keyboard-Chair interface!
Posted by: Jon on July 25, 2007 08:44 PMDanS - How cool is that? Well to do it is cool. But to continue to use that service is stealing. Yes STEALING. You are a crim!
Posted by: B....... on July 25, 2007 11:09 PMNOT true!!!
Check yer lawbook!
Is it a crime to recv a radio signal from AM/FM radio? Is it a crime to operate CB radio with no license? Is it a crime to repurpose FRS radio?
What I CANNOT do (and WILL not do!) is charge anything for this use of the airwaves.
They BELONG to us!
Seriously, we have investigated this for YEARS!
Posted by: DanS. on July 25, 2007 11:19 PMHow much are you paying for your GPS signals?
The Law is CLEAR: under 3 watts ERP (effective radiated power), I (you) can do anything you want with YOUR airwaves.
Go to Radio Shack; get an RF modulator; plug your VCR into it 'backwards' and you are broadcasting. Entirely legal, as long as your signal strength is under 3W ERP (of course, it drives the neighborhood televisions nutz).
As soon as someone turns on a wireless radio device, it is THAT PERSON who is legally responsible for all RF emissions from said device.
That's why WEP and SSID are used to limit who can use those signals. But if that legally-responsible person chooses to leave the channel 'unsecured', why shouldn't I (you) piggyback off of it?
Posted by: DanS. on July 25, 2007 11:38 PMDanS - As you no doubt can tell, I do not agree with you. You are using a valuable service that someone else has paid for. If you have permission from that person (or entity) to use their service then, no problem. If not, then you are using it without their permission. Stealing in other words. Hey – I’m not calling you a mass murderer or anything like that – but lets call a diamond a diamond (must be PC at Denny’s place HaHaHa!).
Posted by: B....... on July 25, 2007 11:48 PMB......;
When you walk inside a building with cool air conditioning, are you first asking permission to enter?
And if you haven't asked for permission, are you 'stealing' the cooled air?
Should you offer to pay for your time within the cool environment?
Yes, SOMEONE has indeed paid for that 'cool air'. It was a decision the offering-party chose to make.
B.....:
I'll leave it at this:
If I drive by Denny's house and my wireless-sniffer (e.g. my laptop) says that he is in 'promiscuous-mode' that's My fault??
:)
Have a good evening!
Posted by: DanS. on July 26, 2007 12:35 AMOK DanS I hear ya (or should I say read ya). Yes, yes - if I leave my house unlocked it is my fault that I was burglarized. I'll concede that it is the responsibility of the "sys admin" to lock up the place so you don't "borrow" their internet time. So, it is not your fault that you can steel the internet access time. You is free. Sorry for any disparaging words I might have thrown your way. And, a good night to you too.
Posted by: B....... on July 26, 2007 02:38 AMI know quite a few people who have WiFi systems and leave them open for any neighbor to use. Remeber though that they have admin access to your system automaticly by way of that unless you propperly firewall. One place I was at recently had a choice of seven diffrent accesses. Most people who have wireless have no problem with others using their access, including many businesses.
Posted by: Jeremy on July 26, 2007 02:53 AMI am sure you know what an ID ten T problem is but for those who dont.
Write it this way: ID10T
Posted by: CB on July 26, 2007 09:14 AMI bought a wireless router and followed thye direction by the letter..and no doubt I have an ID ten T problem also because I could never get it to work. I think I'll call out a techie to hook one up for me as well as a router to network another table top for sweetthing.
Posted by: GUYK on July 26, 2007 09:59 AMAnd let's not forget those other two errors...
PEBCAK - "Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard."
PICNIC - "Problem In Chair, Not In Computer."
Posted by: Roy on July 26, 2007 10:13 AMDenny, what brand and model laptop did you get? i assume you researched, why did you buy that one? thank you, paul
Posted by: paul on July 26, 2007 10:26 AMDenny if you have DSL you may and a wireless router you may get the 'DSL ghost'. Odd little problems that no one can really explain and a lot of "experts" deny even exists. Very few people get the same problems which is why it's called what it is. My problem was that about once a week or so there would be another web site that I used a lot that I wouldn't be able to get on. It got to where I couldn't do some business functions. Finally got an honest tech guy at Verizon who told me to bypass the wireless router and 'BINGO' all the sites worked again. He said he learned about it working in the field but that it wasn't written about or even acknowledged by the comany. Most people don't have any problems.
Posted by: Ric on July 26, 2007 10:49 AMDan:
There's a difference between 'legal' and 'right'.
If you're going through the trouble of REPEATING the signal, then you're obviously not "coincidentally" using it. You're actively abusing their trust and generosity.
So, if a filling station a mile away had "Free water and air", would it be appropriate for you to run water and airhoses to them, and "give them away" to the neighborhood?
Once upon a time, the concept of needing to "secure" data was laughable in the Unix world. Which has hampered it in business, the Unix world tends to lean towards allowing all access.
Then people like you, Dan, came along, and started using 'available' services to send spam. And store data, dirty pictures, illegal activities. So all the open access points had to shutter, go behind authentication walls, and we had to erect multiple layers of filters between anything the public could access and services.
Pardon if I seem angry, but I remember the snarls of outrage when, for instance, we had to stop relaying mail for people not coming from the "authorized" mail servers - because of the people abusing our relays to send Make Money Fast!
Dan, what you're doing might be legal. I don't think it is from what my understanding of the law is. But let's just say, it's possible. It's even more likely that the Day's Inn doesn't care that you're filching their bandwidth and could involve them in a criminal investigation at some point. (Anything your neighborhood does would be traced back to them). At least for now - when your neighbor downloads the child porn, or threatens the President, and the police come-a-calling, the Days Inn might be a little more security-concious.
But, OK, you might be legal to set up repeaters and 'offer' someone else's paid-for bandwidth to the poor impoverished of your neighborhood.
But you damn sure aren't moral, or right about it.
Legal, maybe.
Right, never.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi on July 26, 2007 11:19 AMHey Denny welcome to the 21st century
I've had my wifi laptop fpr about two years and love it .. Oh yea just for the record here in Missouri if you dont have permission to use the so called free wifi you go to jail its a crime ..
Most will give permission if you ask - some charge a small fee . Hotels provide it for paying customers only Mcdonalds Burgerking others have great free wifi with high speeds and there is always starbucks if you dont mind sitting in the same room with 50 nasty mentally challenged old hippys all chanting Bush lied the surplus died ..
DanS - Legal? Yes. Ethical? No.
Posted by: Denny on July 26, 2007 01:56 PMYeah what Paul said,,,what brand? what model? I have wireless (two desktops) but want to add a laptop to the mix....and am looking for a recommendation...
Posted by: Ruth on July 26, 2007 02:10 PMDennny, your wallet's loss is our gain. glad that we will be able to get our GOC on a more frequent basis. I bought my notebook from the dell outlet. chip and dent. it is top notch, little dent on the cover. saved me about 400 bucks.
Posted by: patrick on July 26, 2007 10:36 PMU-J (and Denny):
I've been having a fight with myself all day since I read your comments.
Personal morals define and distinguish right and wrong intentions, motivations and/or actions, as these have been learned, engendered, and otherwise developed within each of us through the process of living life.
By contrast, ethics are more correctly applied to the study of broader social systems within whose context morality exists.
Morals define whether I should kill my neighbour Joe when he steals my tractor; ethics define whether it is right or wrong for one person to kill another in a dispute over stuff.
U-J, especially, assigned a whole bunch of dark, degenerate things to both me and my neighborhood.
In light of you have no facts, and you have no first-hand experience, are your comments morally or ethically challenged?
You both seem to be telling me that such which is legal is morally and/or ethically wrong.
Are you sure you want to go there?
Does this not go smack-to-the-heart of the debate about o-so-many things in Gov't and life today?
Short: Why is it legal if it is immoral or unethical?
Specifically, I would not run physical, material hoses from stations of free air or water to anywhere; on the other hand, air-waves, being non-physical, belong to We, the People ... and can be used, ethically, morally, practically & legally as the Law might allow.
Why do you have an issue with this??
Are you saying I'm making things worse for someone in some way? How so?
As was said earlier, it is up to the owner/provider to secure (or even NOT secure!) resources as they see fit.
You say I am stealing something and am therefore morally/ethically-challenged; Again I say: are you sure you want to go there?
You might want to look at a certain-war being 'played out' in the Middle East and apply your same logic, skill, outrage & concern to that.
Hell, if it pisses you off so much, *plunk* .... I just pulled the plug on the repeaters.
Posted by: DanS. on July 27, 2007 12:41 AMI might add ...
My argument over the shut-down repeaters is essentially what DoJ says we can do.
Little pipsqueak me is wrong on many fronts, but DoJ can do exactly the same things?
Give it a break! Your ASS is showing.
My 'immoral' network is history.
Can you now please work your way up the foodchain a bit?
Posted by: DanS. on July 27, 2007 01:16 AMDenny,
I thought that the (mis)spelling "kewl" was favored by homosexuals. Has it spread to the mainstream?
Posted by: Squidley on July 27, 2007 01:25 AMDanS
We quit reading and peeled our skin off 4 comments ago.
Posted by: patrick on July 27, 2007 02:37 AMU-J, especially, assigned a whole bunch of dark, degenerate things to both me and my neighborhood.
You've misread me greatly, Dan.
Other than saying that you were abusing the trust and the commons, that, yes I did do.
The other, darker "degenerate" things I'm not trying to say that you're actively doing.
However, that's what happens. Worst case, sure. But amazingly, that worst case happens a lot when those sorts of situations are found.
Libraries have to deal with "patrons" masturbating and viewing porn sites. When they filter, they're sued. When they don't, they're sued from the people who see the porn/"patron", or that their kids saw.
Our school wireless is heavily secured. Take a wild gander what happened when it wasn't?
It happens. And the police show up in the course of an investigation, and go up the "chain" of connections.
Rather amazingly, in a case like you've stated, where someone had a open access point and was unaware of the ramifications (due to their own ignorance, we can both agree), they tend to shall we say, overreact, when the ... unexpected use is brought to their attention.
In light of you have no facts, and you have no first-hand experience, are your comments morally or ethically challenged?
"No first-hand experience?"
What does this mean? I'm in part responsible for a VERY large wireless network - that's heavily (many kids complain it's "nazi-like") secured, because of exactly what you're talking about.
Last week I had to stop a spammer sending 4 spams out (what's your address, I'll see if I stopped one to you?) who was "using" our "public" webpage, and a malformed address a newb programmer left in a form to "legally" send hundreds of thousands of spam emails. If you got one from us, sorry, it did take me a while to figure out how they were getting past the filters/security/blocks we have to stop the "traditional" spammers.
I've borrowed wifi connections in the past.
What don't I have first hand experience with?
Short: Why is it legal if it is immoral or unethical?,
*sigh*
Dan, this gets to the very heart of the difference, I believe, between you and I politically and socially.
I'd prefer that many things that are "wrong" aren't "illegal". Just that societal pressure and good nature are expected and allowed to meter what people do.
You want to mandate, restrict, if it's not illegal it's moral, so anything I don't like I outlaw........
That's why I don't want a big government. I don't want the lawbook to read like a checklist. "Did you mow your lawn in the last 14 days? With a electric mower? Set to cut no more than 1/4 inch, and no less than 3/4 inch? Did you mulch your clippings in the mandated place?"
That's not what *I* want. So I tell you Dan, that what you were doing was wrong - but I'll make no move to call the cops on you, or interfere. I'm good with saying "You're bragging about abusing someone's trust?"
And leaving up to you and your conscience to decide if you're going to change. Your problem, really, not mine.
I don't want there to be some hard defined line on these areas that are "grey", or change according to context.
Almost every hotel has a coffee station downstairs that they maintain during the day. If a friend of yours came to town, staying in one of these nice places, and you went to visit, and sat in the "breakfast nook" catching up, would the hotel begrudge you if you also got a cup of coffee? No, they wouldn't.
If you stopped every day and got a cup of coffee on your way to work?
Well, that might be legal, but I think you can see the difference between the two "free" coffees.
Specifically, I would not run physical, material hoses from stations of free air or water,,/em>
It was an analogy. That you didn't explain why the analogy fails.
Why wouldn't you? Isn't air free? Isn't water free? Why would air and water be any different?
air-waves, being non-physical,
Less physical than air? Actually, they're quite physical. RF radio waves are a sort of electromagnetic radiation, and if they were non-physical, they wouldn't work. Quite physical, in certain senses.
And just like the compressed air, or the filtered/pressurised water, it costs money to modulate those "free" EM waves. Sure, some people give away as a "loss leader", or charitiably donate the product of their costs, allowing you to use them for free.
Just as that filling station "gives" you air they've compressed from the 'free' air, or the water they've piped from the 'free' water.
it is up to the owner/provider to secure (or even NOT secure!) resources as they see fit.
Did I ever tell you it wasn't?
Hell, if it pisses you off so much, *plunk* .... I just pulled the plug on the repeaters.
Why?
Dan, we certainly agree on very little, if you're positive you're right, if you are, in fact, doing this legally, and morally, why would you pull the plug because it "pisses me off"? (Which it doesn't, by the way.)
I guess, it does make me sad in a way - I make my living stopping you from using our network.
The additional cost of you, Dan, riding on my wireless, or sending email through my server, is trivial. Fractions of a tenth of a cent.
But the minute I don't stop you, Dan, someone with the same ethics you've espoused "What's wrong with it! Not Physical! Free!" dumps millions of spams, fills up my disk, fills my error log with messages, and the people who are supposed to be using the system are blocked from doing their job.
Dan, if you're certain as to your morality and legality - run the repeaters. Don't stand on the soapbox and demand you're right, but then behave according to my morality. No, set it back up if you believe. I'm OK with that.
It's their fault for not forcing you to get a login, use a specific client, for making it easy for the people they want to have access - and allowing you the "free coffee". We agree totally.
I don't think it's legal, but I'm not going to call the cops on you Dan, it's your choice. You think I'm wrong, and it's legal - plug in the network.
But I will caution you on what the very likely outcome of this will be at some point. I'm not saying it's going to happen, just that it probably will, and again, it's your choice.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi on July 27, 2007 08:20 AMI got my wireless lap top last July. I won't ever go back to a desk top. I like traveling with it too much... all over my house. I'm never stuck at a desk.
Posted by: Bou on July 27, 2007 09:05 AMOne of the first office networks I set up was for an attorney who had just gotten a notebook with a PCMCIA card. The ard came with an install disk that had no setu program on i, and a very small help file that was no help. I finally called tech support. After having to write batch strings into the config.sys and autoexec.bat files, he ended by saying, "now I just can't understand what your problem was. That has got to be the simplest stuff to do." We were on speaker phone, and the look on the attorney's face was priceless.
The tech then laughed and told us it was a common problem because of the company making the cards . That was back in the days when DOS was king. Windows fo Work groups didn't come out till a year or so later.
Dan - Leave it too you to relate this to the Iraq war. Here's another question. When you buy software do you install it on other computers? Do you get software from friends (that they have purchased) and install it on your computers? I'm not talking about open source or freeware. Both of these acts are illegal.
Squidley - I've been using kewl for a long time. I didn't realize that it made me gay.
Bou - I'm typing this comment from my bed. I just need to get more used to this keyboard and the funky mouse on the keypad. I prefer the little stick thingy that IBM has on their Thinkpads. I know. I can buy a mouse for this guy and I will.
Posted by: Denny on July 27, 2007 12:21 PMExcellent post Unix-Jedi
Posted by: B....... on July 27, 2007 12:54 PMMy Toshiba had the stick and I loved it. My Dell uses the think pad, and I think it sucks.
Posted by: Jeremy on July 28, 2007 11:45 PMSee, here's the deal, U-J:
YOU are the Classic example of what it once meant to label one's-self as Conservative.
You can think, you are able with words & you have thoughtful-consideration behind of what you post.
Perhaps even the most-puny Liberal RESPECTS this and indeed springboard's off of such as being the Wealth of the Nation.
I'll be gratified in simply having a decent & honorable exchange with you.
The repeaters remain down & shuttered.
I look forward to the day when we can meet and shake hands; I'm as eager as you are to establish a point or two that we BOTH can add to our foundational-platforms.
U-J:
GOOD man, GOOD Points, Great Skill.