I'll never understand why people think you have to use corn to make alcohol. Denny is correct, you can make alcohol out of sugar, water and yeast. You can also drink it. Taste like shit but what the hell! When I make moonshine I use corn in the mash to smooth the bite, not to increase the percentage of alcohol.

Denny: I think we should all buy Prosper a copy of Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics, autograph it, and send it to him with our best wishes.

Ya know I get a little nervous everytime someone who thinks (feels) they know whats best for me uses the word force. If you want me to think (or feel) like you, convince me I should, don't force me. You WON'T like what you get....

1) We really wouldn't need extra power plants to recharge electric cars. There is enough extra capacity at night to supply the power for them.
2) There are other sources of ethanol besides sugar that are easier to grow in the US. A wood ethanol plant recently opened up in Georgia. There is also algae and a few other sources that would be easier to grow in the plains states than sugar.

Peggy - A better book is Milton Friedman's Free to Choose.

Charlie - Sorry, you're wrong about number 1. It would take a lot more power than we currently produce to charge an entire fleet of plug in cars. And the second problem is if I'm traveling across country how long will it take for me to recharge my car along the way. The fast charge capacitor idea might work.

As to number 2, sugar is the best way to produce ethanol. It gives you more bang for the buck than any other agricultural product.

Yes, sugar is the best way to produce ethanol because sugar is one step closer to ethanol than corn. Corn is a carbohydrate and therefore has to be broken down into sugar first. This is one of the reasons why Brazilian ethanol is so much cheaper than ours: Brazilian ethanol is from cane sugar, and WE TARIFF IT!! Wow do we have a bunch of morons in DC.

Denny,
1) 5 miles/kwh is the expected first gen electric car mileage. At night the electric usage is about half of what it is during the day giving us a 'spare' 150 giga-watts. Say we only get 8 hours of that and it's 1.2 Twh of power that can be generated during that time. Enough to go 6 trillion miles, or 20,000 miles per person in the US per day. For long distance driving, the on board generators that cars like the Chevy Volt are going to have are still going to be a necessity for the foreseeable future. However, to say that we don't have the spare power generation capacity right now is wrong.

2) Sugar IS a great source for ethanol I agree, but I'm not sure about the best. For example, I don't see it being able to be grown in most of the U.S., it requires a lot of moisture and it needs to be 'cared for' with pesticides and other things. However, there are many other ways to get Ethanol that don't involve corn or other food products, some of which are easier to grow and are a bit more drought resistant. From switch grass to wood to algae, there are several other crops that can be grown anywhere in the US, not just in the South. I don't want to see oil replaced with something that is just as finicky and has a limited growing area, particularly one that is periodically in the path of a Hurricane. I'd rather see the sources (yes, plural) for ethanol distributed all over the U.S. Sugar cane if it is part of the solution is fine, but it by itself is too restricted to be the best solution.

Charlie, ethanol is not the solution. You are absolutely right on about that. Distribution is one area of the debate that simply isn't discussed much, especially in the media. Most people don't realize that ethanol absorbs water because it is a water-based compound. Gasoline, of course, is oil-based, which repels water. Our pipelines absorb water and they do so by design for cost reasons. And distributors can easily separate water from gasoline. We don't have that luxury with ethanol because, again, water is absorbed.

So, with that, we can't even use our pipelines for the distribution of ethanol. This requires us to truck ethanol using gas guzzlers across our highways, which of course increases wear-and-tear on our roads and pumps even more carbons into the atmosphere compared to pipeline distribution. The cost to convert our pipelines would be so extreme as to completely eliminate any economic efficiencies realized from ethanol. Another environmentally unfriendly and "incovenient truth" about ethanol. Thanks for reading my crap.

Paul - very interesting.

Now, my brother is an "enviro" and says the ethanol solution should come from "switchgrass". It apparently has no other agricultural benefit. of course corn does. as far as I know there is no switchgrass lobby........there is a corn lobby......coincidence?

The europeans tax themselves silly and lament everything.... thats why their gas is so expensive. I dont feel sorry for them. grow a pair.

Charlie - So an all plug in fleet is not a viable option. Just as I said. They will only be good for short distances. Now as to your power scenario, if you are right that we can do it with the existing capacity, we will still have to burn more coal at night to meet that demand. Uh oh! That will piss the ecotards off.

WTF are you people talking about????

The Brookings Study, as released today and
reported in the Lefty "LA Times", says the Los Angeles has the second "greenest" carbon footprint
of major US cities. Second only to Honolulu.

With our millions of cars, (SUV's, Limos, muscle cars and "Low Riders"; four and five lane "Freeways", (that's just in one direction),
and streams of 18 wheelers going South, West, and North from Long Beach and Port of Los Angeles, we're GREEN!??

It ain't the gas Children. It's just "Bullshit".
And we pay for it.

Oh! on an aside; After the Northridge Quake 14 years ago, we were advised to buy one of the many EQ survival kits available for the "big one" coming in the next ten years. It never came.

Now were advised to buy an EQ survival kit for the "Big One coming in the next 20 years. These kits range from $60.00 to $1,500.00. They're good for 5 years.

Oh God! There's a disaster just around the corner. Buy a kit.

Pete

Hey Pete-
The only kit I give a shit about and would suggest you look into would be the SHTF kit...

Rivrdog is a fucking genius. Thanks for reminding me to check back there. It's been a while...

His Paratus series is where I remember it from. Check out his archives. There's some really good reading in there, and just about the only 'kit' you will ever need is explained in detail.

Because of our taxes (= because of our governement), we produce today small cars that drive almost 60 mpg.

My big familly car drives 33 mpg.

you'll soon buy Fiat, Volkwagen or Renault cars !

;)

Prosper......

Americans may be buying different cars but given the American desire for safety, comfort & quality they will not be Fiat or Renault....possibly some VW`S
though.

I would expect for a larger segment of the American market to be captured by Japanese builders or Korean.

Sorry! but that is just the way it is.

Yes, don't buy french, just buy a japanese Nissan...

;-)

I can understand your desire for comfort : your streets and your drivers are bigger than the european ones. But american cars have reputation here in europe to be very poor in quality. But I'm not sure the american cars sold in europe are the same than yours.
For example, we have no Ford Taurus, and you have no Ford Fiesta.

Prosper, Kronenbourg is not even imported into the US anymore. How is anyone here going to buy a Renault?

The idea of a floor price on oil is not such a bad idea. It would give some assurance to companies/investors that the price of oil could not go below some set point and create a situation where a multi billion dollar alternative fuel plant (e.g.Coal liquification, tar sands, shale oil, tidal forces capture) would not become an expensive curiosity only able to produce fuel/energy at a loss. However it should be set at a level that we do not reasonably expect oil to fall below without heavy manipulation by OPEC. Perhaps $85.00bbl. Below that a tax at 100% of the shortfall below 85$. It would never be collected because producers would have no reason to produce enough oil to drive the price below the floor price.

I have 2 Ford Festivas, one '89 with AT that gets about 33mpg and one '90 with a 5-speed tranny (no, not a San Francisco type) that gets 40-47mpg. I have a Yamaha 1100cc bike that gets about the same as the better Festiva while my wife's 250 Yamaha excedes 80mpg. Then there's my classic, early V8 Bronco that gets maybe 14mpg. I have other vehicles and I like it that way. The nice thing about living in the USA is, I have these choices.
As for electric cars, I remember reading (sorry, no article to cite) that if 25% of the cars that drive into SanFran every day were plugged in to re-charge, it would require all the electricity now generated for use in the city.
And please don't talk to me about mass-transit. I live in a small foothill comunity where busses would never work, and I ain't movin' to a big city to live in a block-long USSR-style apartment. I now drive/ride 6 miles each way to work at my part-time job and manage to max out my wife's Roth IRA.
AIN'T AMERICA WONDERFUL?

Rob J

PS This being the real Memorial Day, thanks to all now serving and who've served in the past, and remember those who gave all.

Vet, you surely know how to produce great movies or tv shows, but you surely don't know shit about beer. Belgians are the masters, we come just after them.

1.21 Jiga-watts!

We all go to electric cars, then the cost of electric goes through the roof, then we all bitch and complain, I think Hydrogen is the way to go unless we all go to solar powered autos, great for those sunny day cruises, we will just have to deal with the stand still rainy days. What I truly do not undertand is with all the money and technology that is gone into the production of autos, we should be able to go to any Auto dealer and have a wide selection of vehicles that get at least 50 mile to the gallon....Oh wait wasn't there a movie about this (Tucker) and those who were going to lose money with the engine design bought and destroyed it. Capitalism at work. Lets get real here, has the vehicle efficiency gotten any better since the 70's?

Most of the cost for gas/diesel in Europistan is taxes. In France 70% of the $8.67 they pay per gallon is taxes. Thats almost $6.00 per gallon in taxes. Without taxes they would be paying about 2.69 a gallon. 75% of the cost of gas in England goes to taxes. In the US the fed tax rate on the total cost per gallon of gas is around 11% with each state levying its own tax rate on top of that.

Prosper......

I drive a Ford F250 Superduty Pickup Truck....Neccessary for my business.......I do happen to agree that Automobiles & Light duty trucks from Japan are superior to what we produce here in the USA. American automobile makers once produced really crappy vehicles, but since competition from Japan came into play ,they have been forced to do much better but still lag behind Japan.

Given the inroads that Japanese auto makers have made in Europe , It must be Europe feels the same way in a head to head comparison between European autos & Japanese. At least it was that way the last time I was in Switzerland,Germany,France,England & Austria.

Yes, Belgium makes some excellent Beer....but do not forget Switzerland also does a fine job as does Germany & Austria. I am really sorry, but I have no experience with French Beer. Actually just about everybody makes better Beer then American Brewers...even the Chinese.

Just a thought on some middle ground. I just traded my F-150 for a Hybrid Camry, improving my mileage from 14 mpg to 36 mpg. It is a nice car and a drastic improvement in mpg without having to make such a drastic change prior to technology changing enough to justify the cost (full electric or hopefully someday hydrogen). Just to make sure I piss off both sides, I put my Lifer NRA plate on as well.

Lying down in hospital in a haze of Morphia. Son reading me the thread and typing for me. Best beer (I insist): Molson Canadian. Best small car: Mini-Austin. Cutest little friend I ever had. 1968-1975: NEVER a problem. Cheap and easy to run in the snowy Northern Ontario roads.

Bonjour Prosper. Saluts à la famille.

It's "laying down" of course ;-). I wouldn't lie about beer!

Sugar Beets instead of cane sugar

No, Claudia -- you were right the first time; it's lying down. You cannot lay down. Physically impossible. Can't set down, either.

Lay is a transitive verb and requires an object, so you can lay down the law, or lay down a strip of rubber, but you can only lie down insofar as assuming a body position is concerned.

You can set the table or set the clock, but you can only sit down.

One day the distinction will prob'ly go away, soon after the language responds to users and drops whom as an archaic form since nobody seems to be able to get it right (who = he / whom = him) any more.

Trust me; 16 years teaching English to dual-enrollment high-school seniors and university students. Can't spell for shit any more tho; started out as a great speller, but saw so many mangled permutations of innocent words in student essays that my memory became corrupted and I gotta use spellcheck like ever'body else.

Subjunctive is nearly a thing of the past, too, 'cause teachers get frustrated tryin to get it across to students who don't give a rat's ass and refuse to remember it more than a day after the test. Passive/active voice distinction is blurring as well, 'cause students find learning how/when to use which one a pain in the butt.

Don......

I also have my Benefactor Life Plate on the front of my Truck ....everybody who shoots or hunts belongs in the NRA, congratulations for having the knowledge who really looks out for your rights.

Claudia....My Quebec friends would drink Molson if nothing else was available....It seems there is or was a problem with beer availability if it was not brewed in the respective province you were purchasing in. I could not get Moosehead in either Ontario or Quebec though it was brewed in the Maritime Provinces. Henri had a real fondness for an American Beer called "Rolling Rock", Each of us always brought 2 cases of 16 oz cans for him. Some years he got 20 cases in total when we had a full crew going up to La Verendrye Park.

Sorry to hear you are in the hospital.....I`ll be in Cleveland Clinic for Surgery on June 11, 2008 so I`ll trade stories with you when I get back.

Prosper - Fiat? Fix It Again Tony? Renault? BWAHAHAHAHA! VW? Maybe. My 2005 BMW 325 gets over 30 MPG on the highway and that's doing between 75 and 80 MPH.

Just for the record my BMW Z3 was built in South Carolina. Many "foreign" cars are now built here in the US and they're being built in the South. Hmmmm! Wonder why? Could it be that the South is more business friendly and is not unionized?

Sir John Falstaff -

Thank you so much.You're a great teacher. I had never understood the distinction until today. Actually my son (who is typing for me at the moment) was telling me that he had written the right thing in the first comment. After all, he should know. He is British, I am French-Canadian. But I insisted for the correction. He obeyed!!

I learned English by immersion, with a British husband. My instinct is usually good. It failed me today. When I look in a grammar, I'm totally lost. Let's face it. No grammar explains it as clearly as you just have done.Please, feel free to do it again when needed. I would be grateful.

Claudia: Hope you are well soon!
Sir John: Where did you come from? Interesting, the people who show up here. :)

Denny's post are great, but I must admit, I look forward to the wide array of people that post, heck some times I read the comments first just to see what has transpired.

Thanks Denny and every one that continues to educate and amuse me.

Plug in cars are a great idea.

So great, that we can't support them across the country.

Someone commented about the "spare capacity" at night. Only partially true. Basically, across the US and Canada, you can track the highest peaks - and it marches westward chasing the sun. By the time the peak's dropping on the West coast, it's 4 am on the East. 2 hours away from starting to climb back up. Most of their "spare capacity" had been shunted to the West.

Which is why the entire Northeast and Ontario and Montreal had that brownout when there was a problem - once the load was exceeded, basically it had to be reset, just throwing the switch back on would have re-overloaded everything.

Now, this has a lot more possibility:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/mira-plug-in-hybrid-car-plugless.php

Being able to swap batteries, charge extra, concievably pick up new ones similar to "Blue Rhino" propane tanks.. that might work.

But we'll still need to almost double electrical carrying capacities to have one of these at everybody's house.

Nah, no "carbon" issues with rewiring the country with massively expensive copper.

... And as soon as we start building Nuke plants - near our big cities - we can start working toward this.

He would do this by having the gummint increase gas taxes if the price of gas dropped below $4.00 per gallon.

Which is the real crux of the situation. "Stuff's too cheap, you've living too well. Suffer, peons. Suffer. We'll jack the price up on everything so you can't live in luxury, just so we can."

Any person who says something that inane is about control. Telling you how to live.

Not letting you live your life. That's "Liberal", but it's not liberal. Too bad the Democratic party is almost totally "Liberal".

Yep, charge them up. The democrat crazies fight a new coal fired power plant. The power company ask (today) for a 28% rate increase starting this fall. Play with fire, get burned, be stupid, get cold and hungry this winter. Sure glad I have two fireplaces in my home and access to plenty of wood and hundreds of thousands of tons of coal, all free for the taking. As a fireman I hate any fires in a home but guess I'll resort to it soon, this winter most likely. Out with the gas logs.

Don - a sad by product of this al gore bullshit is the hybrid being an icon of the left. I don't think it should be that way. any private sector solution to reduce our oil consumption is fantastic.

The hell of this oil problem is that the saudi's and others are getting rich. It is a systematic transfer of global wealth from America to backward ass Islamofacists. Anything to reduce our dependence on them is fine with me and entirely patriotic as far as I am concerned.

Drill that ANWR, gasify that coal, build nuclear power plants, put out those solar panels, churn up that canadian tar. whatever it takes.

oh.. Claudia.. glad you are on the mend and it did not take til August to get you back here. Denny - you are right, many Japanese engineered cars are built here in the USA. Accords, camrys, Tundras, on and on.

Prosper:

Belgian beer? You are fucking kidding, right? The Germans pour better brew in the shitter than that. And there is one Renault dealer in my entire state. Who the fuck would buy a Renault other than an impressed, socialist, french tard? Prosper, did a moroccan/algerian take your job? You sure have been pissy lately. Go nail your wife and think of Carla Bruni. That is the only thing in france right now worth a fuck.

And damnit, I like Kronenbourg. Probably because I grew up on cheap american beer. At least here we have baseball and hot dogs to go with our cheap beer. I'll take that over Kronenbourg and effeminate socialism any day. Tell abdul and mohammed I said hello.

toodles

What would happen if the tax rate per gallon were set at a fixed 'price' ($0.25) ?

I would think the incentive for artificially inflating the price/gallon would be gone at that point.

EX. 11%/gal @ $4.00 = 44 cents vs. a fixed 25 cents

" Actually just about everybody makes better Beer then American Brewers..."

Than put down that Bud or Coors Light and try any number of beers from AMERICAN micro- and craft-brewers. They brew beers that'll put to shame a lot of the pisswater euorpeans try to pass off as beer.

thatjerryguy.......

I have traveled over much of Europe & the Pacific Rim....I have sampled beers from Europe, the Pacific Rim,Australia, Pacific Oceana the American`s North & South as well as the Caribbean including representation from areas of the world I physically never visited.

I have had any number of different Micro breweries Products presented for my opinion. With a few exceptions most of these brews were something of less then international standards for brewmaking.

I stand by my position most everybody in this world brews better beer then what is commercially popular or what is offered as specialty beers here in the United States.......Yes there are some fine american beers, you have to look for them ....thats the fun of it.

For what it is worth....

Domestically good

Anchor Steam
Linenkuegal
Original Olympia in Washington
Original Pabst on tap in Milwaukee
Original RollingRock on tap
Yuengling

Worldwide

Hopfenperl Felschoschen from Zofingen Switzerland
Hurliman Stern from Zurich
Wrexham from England
Bass Ale
Tsingtao from China if Fresh
Original Fosters From Australia
Tooheys Lager ice cold fron Australia
MooseHead Canadian
Many from Germany
Tuborg Gold
Red Stripe on tap in the Caribbean or cans if sight seeing

Many others..... but this is what comes to mind.....Actually my father taught me never to drink beer unless I was alone or with somebody.....Maybe someday we can tip a few together.

For Dudley (no hope for Vet) : Chimay (blue better than red), Triple leffe or Duvel...

as for renault, Vet, ask to Kirk Kerkorian...

I've done a fair bit of traveling myself, mostly to Europe, but also a trip to Japan and a couple to Australia, as well as Greece, the Caribbean and Malta. Interestingly enough, I was told by more than a few Aussies that even Australians usually don't drink Fosters, preferring such brews as Coopers, Tooheys and Barons (I like their Black Wattle.) As for European beers, I prefer their darker ales, porters and stouts. To your Euro list I'll add

Sam Smiths
Youngs
Fullers
Gales
Bellhaven
Kriek
Gueze
Celebrator
and of course Guiness on tap in an Irish Pub, just to name a few

But to say American beers are by and large inferior is to do a grave injustice to a lot of fine domestic brewers. To your list I'll add

Brooklyn
Magic Hat
Wynkoop
Redhook
Sam Adams
Rogue
Goose Island
As well as a lot of brewpubs brewing their own beer, just to name a few more

As my dad told me, people chug beer (and do shots) for one reason. They're not enjoying what they're drinking. So sip and enjoy. Life is too short to drink bad beer (and lousy bourbon.)

And if you're ever in Washington DC, visit the Brickskeller. It's a beer-lovers slice of heaven, and proof the city has some good points, too.

Sleep tight prosper, france has the world by the balls.
P.S.
Napa valley knows nothing about wine either.

thatjerryguy.....

I forgot Japan.....Special fondness for Asahi on tap in Japanese Neighborhood restaurants.Overhead tap system right over your head while seated at the counter.

Good Beer sampling spot......The Monkey Farm Bar in Old Saybrook/Old Lyme Conn. Used to go there after dinner from the Old Saybrook Fish House. They advertised 300 imported beers on the premises.....never got past 20 or so,Biggest attraction was watching the local young ladies toss darts.

Goose Island!....Is this the same brewer as Goose /Gander Ale from Minnesota?

"Goose Island!....Is this the same brewer as Goose /Gander Ale from Minnesota?"

dudley1,

I don't believe so, as Goose Island is brewed in Chicago. To be honest I've been to a Minnesota but don't recall a Goose/Gander Ale.

I may have to take a road trip to CT and give The Monkey Farm Bar a try. BTW, the Brickskeller in DC has about 1300 beers from all over the world in stock. Try as I might every time I went, I was never able to put much of a dent in their selection.

thatjerryguy.......Goose Island/goose or Gander ale

I think it might be the same company as I was drinking this in the taproom at the Embassey Suites in Hoffman Estates outside of Chicago ..the Bartender told me he thought it was from Minnesota....I have some coasters as souveniers at my hunting Camp to check for where the Brewery is,I`ll let you know.

Definitely topshelf wherever it was brewed.If you go to the Monkey Farm bar ,hit the Old Saybrook Fish House for dinner ....Swordfish on a bed of wild rice is excellent & they serve Fosters in the 25oz can....make sure it is imported not the domestic crap.

dudley1,

Goose Island currently makes a Honkers Ale, but not a Gander Ale. They also make Harvest, India Pale, Red and Nut Brown Ale.

And should I find myself at the Old Saybrook Fish House I will take your recommendation. Interestingly enough, the "domestic crap" that is Fosters is actually brewed under license by Molson, since Fosters is now part of a big spirits conglomerate.

Wow..in france you can be charged for racial hatred.

http://www.accessatlanta.com/entertainment/content/shared-gen
/ap/Other_Entertainment/France_Bardot_Racism.html

thatjerryguy.......

Yep! Honkers & Gander ale are one & the same.....it has been 10 years since I was there to sip & taste a number of tall glasses but it sure was good. Damn! I will have to see if I can get some shipped in by one of our local specialty retailers.....they are all under strict state control, so maybe a road trip after I get out of the hospital might be in order & cheaper.

Fosters domestic was brewed by the former Pittsburg Brewing company which was bought by I think Rupert Murdock....Don`t know if they are connected in anyway to Molson but it was horrible when brewed by PBC.

Fosters was a particular favorite of my Dad`s when I was able to get the Genuine article in 12 oz bottles.....We used to go out on Lake Erie on my boat & fish for perch, nothing like a cold Fosters on a hot day . Dads gone now, so is Genuine Fosters, nothing left but the memories but they are priceless.