It's unchecked capitalism's fault that is to blame for this. It knows no party lines or sides of the aisle. It is greed, the need, desire to please stockholders and basically the lack of common sense that a 4% annual return on your invested money isn't bad (even though these companies will mismanage themselves so that it looks more like an 8, 10 or more % of a return on your investment). And now, it's the Bush administrations fault for bailing out all of these failures. The economy has cycles. Some good, less bad. We need to take the bad, to get the good. With this infusion of federal money to prevent these belly up companies from causing a true "recession" in the country, we are now going to have to come up with (that's we as in the taxpayers) money to cover it. Ridiculous. It also sets a precedent for future government involvement. This is not how capitalism works, having the government bail them out every time something goes wrong. Now the other problem created is since we (the taxpayers) don't want to bail out, with our tax dollars, any more of these companies that were stupid, more government agencies will be created to oversee them in the future. Great, just what we need, more government.

For years, Democrats and the left criticized lenders for red-lining and not making enough loans to minorities, regardless of qualification issues. So, lenders were forced by threats and they obeyed. Now, those borrowers defaulted on the loans, and suddenly it's McCain's fault.

It was the Democrat`s who controlled Fannie May& Freddie Mac who opened the flood gates during the Clinton Administration to low interest loans for people without the means to repay them or even any intention of doing so.Even ACORN the outfit which funded Community Organizer Obama`s activities recieved untold million`s.It is not uncontrolled capitalism....it is a fraud disguised as aid for the underprivileged underclass but supplied enormous personal gain for the former heads of both agencies & their associates.About $200,000,000 total for the top two according to some sources. These two money pit dippers are now on Obama`s staff as financial consultants.

The congress has had oversight of this for years & long term entrenched bureaucrats have had unfettered control over loan practices & compensation . These have been almost exclusively Democrat`s.

The really sad thing is Dan Mudd who was brought in to straighten out this mess walked away with some $76,000,000 in perk`s & lives in a luxury home in DC. Yes, he is a Democrat & the son of Roger Mudd the liberal newsman.
The typically sad end result is the very people who created this mess are in charge of cleaning it up....No investigations, No recriminations, No blame ....just white wash & by the way it was of course Bush`s fault even though the congress had oversight responsibility. The solution is going to be dumping the multi-billion cost onto the taxpayer`s while those who profited from this live in luxury.

Yeah, I don't get it either, Denny. I have worked at a small bank, in the loan servicing end of things. It was some time ago, back in the 80's - but I recall people were routinely denied loans because they didn't qualify in one way or another ... either bad credit or not enough income to justify the size of the loan. But maybe the fact that it was a small bank entered into more sensible decision making when it came to lending.

When we bought our first home, we had to provide all sorts of documentation and come up with a substantial down payment. This was to get into a modest, 1400 square foot house in 1986. Of course, we factored in the cost of living as well as the house payment!

We've moved up to slightly more comfortable quarters - as time went by and we accrued equity and got pay raises. We now have 600 more square feet. But now I'm reading about people who make half the money that we do buying houses that are five times as expensive as our current house - and covered by variable rate loans, no less! And then expecting others to feel sorry for them when, DUH!!!, it all goes to hell in a hand basket? I can't find any sympathy for anyone who is in this situation. There must be a lot of folks who feel the same way, because I've noticed the MSM is not running as many of these sob stories these days ... prolly got too much backlash from their readers!

A few days ago Nancy Pelosi said, "We (democrat congress) did nothing." Exactly. I'm wondering how they manage to get even 19% approval rating.

OK Dudley,

You obviously are much more versed than this than I am, but I'm still pretty riled up because as bad as things are, the Republicans had to see the writing on the wall (which one report I read yesterday said they did try to get an investigation), but if they were really doing their job, they would have shouted out from the highest mountains to the American people that we need to force the current Congress to launch an investigation.......before we got to this point. Politics in Washington. Same shit different day.

When the Republicans do shout, Pelosi closes the microphones and turns off the lights. She doesn't debate, she silences.

You better get your ammo stored up when the goverment checks stop, the free cheese comes to a end. Their will be riots in the streets of all the big urban areas.The looting after Katrina will pale in comparisons to whats going to happen when the goverment goes bankrupt.

What are they going to call the new Department they want to create to deal with this?

The Dept. of Wealthcare?

If you take wealthcare, I'd like wealthfare instead. It's still our tax dollars going to support the wealthy in their time of need.

Which means a whole new meme to pick apart:
"How does one move from wealthfare to work?"
-or-
"It's all them wealthfare queens that are causing all the problems!"
-or-
"It's not a handout; it's a holdup! It's wealthfare, damn it!"

The Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac bailout goes uninvestigated because it has served as a source of money for politicians for decades. This issue makes Enron look like peanuts.

We need to push the issue of a criminal investigation of this debacle. The GUILTY parties who raped our treasury need to answer for their crimes.

And as per Harry Reid they don’t know what to do. An independent investigation might be a good start.

Of course Jamie Gorelick is right in the middle of this controversy (see below article)

Political friends were appointed as CEOs to these organizations and all managed to walk away with millions in bonuses, including Jamie's 20 million.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/mistress_of_disaster_jamie_gor.html

Willie, Ray, DanS,Spongerob, PeggyU & all other`s....

Have you noticed we here are representative of many divergent polical belief`s but on this issue seem to be united as to who is responsible & that something needs to be done to correct it.

While as I pointed out, this was initiated under the Clinton Administration with certain influential Democrat`s dirty fingerprints all over it , I certainly am not absolving the Rino`s who bellied up to the Federal trough to suck up the free cash either.
This is the biggest collective rape of the American taxpayer`s in my lifetime & we all need to be a whole lot more aware of just what the people we elect stand for & are actually doing. We need to get back to the fundamental`s which made this country great & be far wiser as to who we place our political allegiance with & elect people who will serve we the people instead of serving themselves as has been the case for 70+ year`s.

I have said for sometime my vote is with John McCain not because he is my first choice but because he is the best of the worst. I still feel the same way. As regard to Vice
President , I will stick with Sarah Palin over Lying Joe Biden as he is one of the most vile of the Democratic insider`s. I think with this team we have a chance for real change if we stay on their case about it. A vote for Obama/Biden is a vote for more of the same.

You know it has been said many times that Wall Street is ruled by fear and greed. I have been wondering these past few days how many prudent fund managers, bankers and other persons who knew better got deep into this mess because of fear rather than greed. There was money to be made in these collateralized bonds, REIT's, sub-prime loans and other instruments touched by this burst housing bubble and credit crunch. With money to be made, it would take a brave man or woman to say "I consider these investments to be dangerous and will not go into this".
Fear of falling behind their peers or the market return I think pushed otherwise cautious persons into risky holdings.

Too few have the courage of their convictions.

Brad:

Precisely.

And now they are going to fund another bureaucracy to regulate wall street? Will it be a success like the bullshit Bureau of Energy? One of their first tasks is consider loaning money to the oil companies? Like those greedy bastards need more money. Must be sweet to be a high risk investor nowadays. Have the risk pan out, make a big profit. Fall on your ass, make a big profit. What a fucking joke. Fuck Washington and their ignorant bi-partisan bullshit. I would say conservatism is dead at this point.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1922/ripsr0.th.jpg

vetfrom:

I take no pleasure in agreeing with your assessment regarding conservatism (and I do agree!), but would add only that American democracy is in a sickbed as well.

We have got to find common-ground and pull together. It's all that's left.

ever think is was OUR fault? we love to blame the politicians and the finance people but in reality it was the peoples fault for pushing for it and allowing it to happen.
We were all to busy being republicans and democrats and seeing who could do what to whom first.
It was OUR greed and OUR irresponsible behavior in allowing these people to do this to US.
NOW is the time for us to work together to bail out this mess. Maybe we can now say that the rich shouldn't get richer and it will trickel down to us.
Maybe it's time to say I am worth as much as that guy who run's that company is because he can't do it without me. Maybe I am worth as much as a movie star or sports jock because if I wasn't watching just who would he be.
Maybe it's time we got off our duffs and accepted the responsiblity for buying the crap they have been shoveling at us for all these years.
would be nice if we could all work together to get that done on a bipartisan group.
ever thought: am I voting for the person or the party?
It has been said that all democracy's fail when the greedy figure out they can continue to con someone into buying into they are worth more than they are worth. that is why our founding fathers formed a REPUBLIC not a democratic country.
Peolple have tried to make this a democracy and look where it has gotten us. WE ARE A REPUBLIC and need to be to survive.
Come on folks quit voting "the party" and start putting people in office who are accountable to the people. Ones who know how to say no to big brother and all the dollars he has in his pocket. The ones who think the government is there to be guided BY the people not the people guided by them.
I hope this will wake people up and makes them think....was I part of this?....and has them answer YES! I allowed them to do this to me because I didn't take a stand
you've been raped folks....what is that expression.... oh yeah...."well did you like it?"
now you can empathize when they ask a woman that.

For real DanS. When the fed goes under so do I. I live on SSDI and a puny VA check. Irony can be ironic sometimes.

A Trillion dollars worth of bad debt ?
Thats about 20% of the GDP if I have my numbers right . Just where in the hell are these homes and how many were there ? I personaly dont know a single soul who bought one . This whole thing stinks on ice and I want to see some real facts and figures . I also want to see some perps in orange jumpsuits quickly or I will be vacationing in DC with my pitchfork and ax handle . These bastards just robbed me and my children and I wont just roll over on this one.

After Watergate, when Ford became President, one of the first things Congress did was pass budget reform. One of the things that Nixon did was use his executive power to not spend all the money on all the pork.
That is where and when to budget and the money itself went out of control.
The government meaning Congress, has been promising everything in order to get votes. But they have so devalued the money, so tied us to imported oil [we can't drill] and they just keep printing money. Government policies encouraged mortgage loans to deadbeats.
The people didn't pay any attention, lack of panties on Brittney Spears kept them occupied.

The liberal Aristocracy......

Some 76 year`s ago Franklin D.Roosevelt came to Washington dedicated to ending the Depression & reforming the country. He & his group of reformer`s & Idealists effected much change,they brought the Goverment into far more of people`s lives then ever envisioned by our founder`s. I personally feel he was a great man & never intended the consequence`s which have resulted from tampering with the interaction of what was supposed to be a government to the people & creating a people to the government mentality.

What has happened? Since the time of FDR, succeeding generations of Liberal Socialist`s have prostituted his accomplishment`s into a bloated independant Liberal Federal Bureacracy which functions basically independent with only cursory oversight or control from the nominal controlling authority of our elected representatives. Why? because as time has passed our elected officials have become dependent on & beholden to the system they are supposed to control. Greed is one factor , the usage of the welfare system for amassing political allegiance to establish power or control over the electorate is another.

We dutifully vote each election cycle,some of us vote straight party tickets, some vote split tickets , some even encourage a stalemated government where the executive branch & the legislative branch are controlled by different parties. This has given rise to the assumption of power by the Judicial branch to legislate from the bench & establish law or conduct.....dutie`s or decision`s specifically given to the executive & legislative branch`s under seperation of power`s & forbidden to the Judicial branch.

Since the time of FDR & the unleashing of the liberal socialist drive for governmental action, the Bureacracy established has spread it`s tentacles of power or control over most of the operations of the Federal government & even through the establishment of new cabinet position`s into area`s formerly the province of individual state juristiction. I remember when Socialist Sally prior to Denny banning her derided my statement for the existance of a Liberal Aristocracy but the debacle we are currently in substantiates in large measure my contention.

Consider this, the perpetrators who created this mess & manipulated the system for enormous personal gain have re-surfaced as financial consultants for a liberal politician Barach Obama, himself a product of the manipulation of that system who also benefited from the availability of easy money which could be used to advance his political agenda back when he was a community activist. Consider the trouble`s with Charlie Rangel & the impunity he has operated without interferance from any of the speakers of the house down thru the years who were supposed to be overseeing what this committee was doing. In what I consider a supreme example , Jamie Gorelick who was responsible for the establishment of a firewall between the Intelligence agencies under the Clinton Administration resurfaced during the Fannie Mae Freddie Mac fiasco & pocketed some 26 million dollars.

We all like to blame the other guy for what goes wrong, it is no different when it comes to politics, we Conservatives blame Liberal Democrats & they blame Republican `s. Generally the blame is placed with the President currently in office. Usually they are operating with their hands tied as the system prevent`s any effective action. What most people forget is the Liberal Socialist Bureacracy is entrenched very deeply after 76 years. President`s come, Presidents go.....The system remain`s . You can be damn sure the Democratic Party know`s this reality & work`s hand in hand with the system to assure they have their piece of the pie & actively seek`s out likely candidate`s which are Liberal who are compatible to the system & become similarly insulated from effective scrutiny.

Obama preach`s change but even a cursory review of his career establish`s he to be a product of the system & will continue the gradual assumption of power & control in progress for the last 76 year`s. Were we to really want change ,were we to move this Goverment back to it`s original intent we would need a maverick , of which party does not matter , he would need a plurality in the House & Senate dedicated to working with him & a huge staff prepared to review every department of the Federal government & root out these entrenched leech`s & replace them with honest people willing to serve the people not feed off of them.

This scenario is not likely as long as we continue the divisive politic`s in place today. We need to do away with the artificial barriers both parties have erected which keep reformers from working for the benefit of the people. We need to get our major news media on the side of the People instead of spreading the liberal Socialist Agenda. An impossible task ? Is America up to the challenge? Will we even make the Effort?

If we do not , either a Liberal Socialist Society will replace the Republic or a revolution will occur. Putting aside Partisan Politic`s, where do you stand?

"We need to get our major news media on the side of the People instead of spreading the liberal Socialist Agenda."

That says it all right there.

In other words, a Liberal, a Socialist, a person with an agenda different from your own is not part of the People of these United States & the 'Media' should pay no attention to them.

You forgot to mention Race, Creed, Color, Sexual Orientation or stance on guns, abortion, healthcare and Universal Service.

No matter & not to worry; we understand what you are trying to say.

You want to reserve for yourself the very definition of who is, who can be, "the People of these United States."

Who could possibly find any fault in that? You don't ask for much.

Amazing week. Discussing things with my little group (The Six Canadian Pundits on USA Politics) we came to the conclusion that we owe a big thanks to American Taxpayers. You revived the Financial Market. Our Funds went dramatically down and then dramatically up. So far (at least till Monday!) our loss is minimal.

I bet, not only us but, the whole world sighed with relief. Will Europe thank you? Don't waste your time waiting. You owe it to the world to save it from falling apart. They're probably as busy as you are looking for the culprit of this catastrophe. You can be sure they'll say his name is Dubya. Why didn't he stop Americans from being greedy, and wanting a house instead of a tent?

I don't really understand the complexity of the problem. I'm listening to all of you with attention. I hope that McCain and Palin reform Washington as they promised to do, and things get better for all of you, SRF and SPF.

Till then, the Canadian Pundits are inviting you to drop by for a glass of wine to thank you for the rescue. Sorry for your extra income tax.

DanS......

What I have pointed out is a correct analysis of what has evolved over the last 76 years. The truth is the Liberal agenda is what predominates in this issue & it is certainly legitimate to take notice of the obvious fact the power base of the liberal left lies within the Democratic Party.
It is just as legitimate to show the Liberal Socialist makeup of those who comprise the Federal Bureacracy.
As to who can be the people of the United States is not the issue as all the people who are legitimate citizens qualify ....the central point is for this nation to remain truely free, the principles this Nation was founded on must be maintained.It is only from the left significant challenge`s have been put forth.

The point`s you posted for Race,Creed, Color etc are irrelevant.....I intentionally posted from what I thought was a neutral position except where it was not possible.I feel all of us regardless of Race, Creed or Color have much to lose here.

My thrust or message is this country is in a serious situation at the present time & extraordinary measures must be taken to put this train back on the track`s regardless of who is elected to the Presidency. We need to address our problems or the pendulum could swing to a hard right position violently & bring restriction`s we all will object to.

Once upon a time the American new`s media did an excellent job of reporting the news & keeping us informed. Once upon a time they held the utmost respect for the accuracy of what they presented....even if reported from a particular political point of view.........Now is the time they really ought to go back to truth & accuracy.

Their current policy of fronting for the liberal socialist point of view,creating the news rather then to report it & advancing the liberal agenda must end. It is no secret this is the principle reason for the decline of influence the major media has experienced or the resulting rise of Fox news & the internet. The Truth is there for the people who will look.Unfortunately there is still a significant group of people gullible enough to hold the interest of the major media as it presently is constituted. This is the kind of change we need....real change, no more BS.

getting your blogging buddies together and bring your points to them.
what's important?
balancing a budget. you have one it's time the government got one. no more overspending. make the lawmakers accountable. let them "live" like we do.
accurate news coverage was said. look what happened when the gas prices started going up. it was ok and the fear factor was fed to us to cover up the corporate greed of the gas companies, that had been trying for years to get prices up. unfortunately they had to report their profits. RECORD profits brought forth with lies. they are still feeding us that line and they are still just raking it in. crude is what price?? and gas is still what price? it sure went up fast but it never goes down for long.

Maybe you stock owners need to start taking a look at how you are getting...taken advantage of. I have exon stock..with the record profits and all you would have thought the dividends would have gone way up but did they? did the the price of stock go up proportionately? any of you own some...you answer for me.

Maybe we start letting people know that these golden parachutes that they pay for with our money are NOT acceptable. Hire a guy at an astronmical sum then when he doesn't do well and you want to get rid of him give him a heck of lot to go away and then do it again???? that doesn't make sense in my budget.

maybe we cut back on helping other countries and work on putting ours back on track for a while.

when the school systems run into budget problems that have to cut. and maybe the government has to start cutting some of it's programs. Maybe some of the free rides need to stop.

Maybe the government needs to have one federal pension and not the double and tripple dippers in them.
laws need to be enforced and not overlooked.
what else??
this also needs to be done at state level. maybe the states need to quit depending so much on the feds for help.

I could go on and on but folks you think and you figure it out. what do you when you have problems making ends meet....hopefully you do the sensible thing and cut way back. not go out and buy a house.
remember the second debate is supposed to be taking questions from bloggers...find out about it and be there asking YOUR questions and make sure you make accountablity something that they KNOW you want.
(you guys do so well with your grammar and caps and spelling and I don't so please forgive that and just listen to the message as it comes from the heart...even though the head is a little off)

Dee:

I hear you.

I hope such acknowledgement does not burden you nor extinguish what you try to say. There is that possibility. It can get pretty rough here on a voice that simply tries to be as direct as is our Host.

I've found you'll get an honest hearing & response when you post honestly; it's a good thing to be able to say and here's a good place to be.

dudley1:

Can you tell me who was the first person in these United States to publish & espouse the concept of:

"As you would do unto the Least of us, you do to us all?"

I think you can't because such as is cited is Universal & Timeless.

The quote is from GWB on occasion of launching "Shock & Awe."

See how a 'false-frame' is developed & made Gospel-Truth? The Man genuinely means well (according to me, at least).

Where such a concept breaks down is in assuming that everyone 'buys into' the concept as expressed ... -without regard to the details that supposedly-support the idea advanced..

Ask both Thomas Jefferson & Osama Bin Laden about that; You might be surprised to find how similar they are.

Vetfrom:

For real DanS. When the fed goes under so do I. I live on SSDI and a puny VA check. Irony can be ironic sometimes.

Now you understand what I went to War for. Now you understand what and who I am fighting for.

Now you understand that you have an advocate.

DanS.......

Just what contraband medication`s or foliage would you need to consume or smoke to have vision`s that Thomas Jefferson & Osama Bin Laden are similar? Perhap`s you mean Cold Cash Jefferson?

Anyway, I think you understand even if you wish it were not so , my post regarding the history for the insidious growth of the Liberal Bureaucratic Aristocracy who are the real power behind the throne in Washington DC regardless of who the President might be.

Dee, You make some good point`s, I wish we could use liberal democratic magic...POOF! it is all fixed..... but this is the real world, there is as I posted a power behind the throne which prevent`s any true reform`s from taking place....not until the electorate really gets fedup & decide`s to act unilaterally across party line`s to weed out the incompetent & corrupt....To demand Budget guidelines be met, To demand the Federal Government at all level`s serve the people as intended.

However as I said this is the real world ...perhap`s only 75% of eligible voter`s are even registered, on average only half of them vote. Using a minimal figure say 100, this means only 75 are registered, only 37 or 38 vote ....in a normal election with a 5% spread between winner & loser only 19 or so vote`s determine the winner.

This reflect`s the reality on average a maximum of 19% of eligible voter`s determine the direction of the country ,state,city or district in a given election. If you add in the ease for rampant fraud through motor voter registration,the dead in Chicago or registration of non-existant people......Well I think you can see the real problem`s here, Potential voter indifferance to civic responsibility,Registered voter complacency,Behind the scene`s manipulation of voter roll`s & Pandering to ethnic voter block`s.

We need a revolution in citizen`s attitude for civic responsibility , we need a committment from every potential voter to Register, vote & demand from every candidate or party honesty,competance & to serve the people. I do not see it happening in my life time .......I think it much more likely as America loses ground for world dominance & other nation`s rise.....an attempt to seize power to force a reformation would occur.

I am not saying I wish to move on just yet, but I hope this does not happen in my lifetime either.

I see the "greedy oil companies" thing reared its ugly head again a few comments back. Why can't people think logically?
Say I'm an oil (or any other) company. I buy oil or whatever for $10.00 and sell it for $11.00. I have made 10% and $1.00 from the transaction.
I wake up next day and find I have to pay $20.00 for the same thing. So I sell it at the same profit percentage (10%) which means I sell it for $22.00 and make $2.00 on the sale. Now I am a greedy no-good because I made twice as much profit on the sale. Yet some of the bozos on the Left (most, actually) would have me still sell at $21.00 so I still make an un-greedy profit of $1.00, which now buys half as much oil to re-sell. This will eventually result in closing my doors and going on welfare (and WHO pays for that?).
Let them try that if THEY owned the company (or even a small part via stock if it's a public company) and see which side of the mouth they scream from instead,
Imbessels. Maroons.
(hat tip to Bugs Bunny)

dudley1:

I thought I addressed your concern in the sentence prior to that which you cite:

"Where such a concept breaks down is in assuming that everyone 'buys into' the concept as expressed ... -without regard to the details that supposedly-support the idea advanced.."

And as to "Bureaucratic Aristocracy", what the hell is that? ... -a stifled sneeze? Bureaucratic Aristocracy ??? Aristocrats as bureaucrats? A "Bureaucratic Aristocracy" is pulling the strings and is responsible for ...

Count me among the 'Imbessels' who just don't 'get it'

me too Dan, 40 billion in profit doesn't sound like that man's math to me. I understand profit. I know it's necessary BUT there comes a time when one has to wonder, as a stock owner, WHERE the money went? I sure didn't get my fare share.
And as a shareholder I am for a good profit but YIKES I don't think we should be that greedy and watch others suffer. and yes there are those that are having problems, they are called the working poor. I am one of them.
I hate ripping myself off.

DanS........

I really think you are rejecting the probability as in order for you to admit acceptance....it would be a recognition the political philosophy you champion is not the truth you thought it to be.
Perhap`s you might be able to explain the progression of liberal socialist influence to the daily operation of most facet`s of our Federal government as well as it`s control over most State & Local Governments, Academic Administration & Scholastic content in some other logical plausible fashion.

You might also ponder the overwhelming propensity for those identified as Socialist Liberal in belief to be Democratic & often involved in criminal financial dealings among other transgression`s.

Look, No one like`s to see their cherished belief`s found to be suspect, the first impulse is denial but unless you can refute what has occurred over the last 76 year`s with some other plausible explanation ,my observation`s hold the high ground for being the cold hard truth.

You ask what is a Bureacratic Aristocracy?......I have seen studies or report`s which indicate as many as one in five people now are employed & subject to the dictate of a Governmental Agency.Think a bit about all the various rule`s , regulation`s & compliance requirement`s which have been placed on just about everything which occur`s on a daily basis.
Remember the word`s of Hillary Clinton when she said "It is our duty to make decision`s for the people of this Country as they be cannot be trusted make them the correct decision`s for themselve`s"
Ask me again, What is a Bureaucratic Aristocracy? It is those by Political Orientation & Educational Accomplishment who are empowered to control the life decision`s you traditionally made independently of your own free will.

I personally do not care whether you reach acceptance for my observation in all of what I have concluded. What is important is you open your eye`s, ear`s,& mind to what is going on around you.

Cheer`s DanS....if I make you think , it is a start.

Dee.......

Thank`s for chiming in.....I assume you are referring to oil companie`s profits when you speak of 40 Billion, read back a few week`s on GOC`S Thread`s for an explanation of profit, Taxation & Regulation for Oil Companies complete with source & referances.

It is amazing to me when people become fixated on a portion of a topic without full understanding of the entire problem.I could go into great detail but it is already posted so read it if you want to know. It also is perplexing to see you so upset for a 40 Billion dollar profit which after taxes & expenses is a 11.8% profit margin but seem to be willing to assume the debt load of a 500 Billion dollar now 700 Billion dollar bailout of the Banking/housing Fiasco orchestrated by predominantly Democratic members of the Federal Bureaucracy most of whom walked away with Million`s of dollars.Consider if you will ..if it requires a 700 Billion dollar bailout, they have already squandered 700 Billion dollars. I don`t know about you but 1.4 trillion is beginning to be quite a large number to accept without some accountability.

The reality of what our elected & appointed officials have done to the financial & economic stability of this country from greed for power & personal gain is not a comfort , is is appalling & most people do not have a clue what has transpired but they should.

I also want to see some perps in orange jumpsuits quickly or I will be vacationing in DC with my pitchfork and ax handle .

You know, my better half and I were talking about that just today ... gathering up the pitchforks and torches. We only have one pitchfork in the garage, but I can fetch another one from Cenex easily enough. We are stumped on that whole torch thing, though. Is a Tiki torch intimidating enough, do you think? Make that a citronella Tiki torch and maybe a small acetylene torch.

Dudley: Agree with your comments!!! And, btw, re Darrell G's remark, the perp I'd most like to see in orange is that slime eel Jamie Gorelick. What is she doing these days, anyhow? I predict that whatever it is, it will become a focus of concern down the road ...

Now BHO ... what's with the bundle he's made off of FNMA? How come he hasn't come clean on his associations there?

Now here's something else I'd like to see someone address, and it has nothing to do with the mortgage industry: rising health costs. I want to see one candidate come out and admit that the reason health care costs have skyrocketed is because of government interference ... and not because of greedy insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Over the course of my lifetime, the government has encroached enormously. We have Medicare and Medicaid and a subsidized prescription program. Social Security money goes to pay for medical care for people who have never paid a dime into the system. Government imbursement for providers is slow and unreliable. For those of us who aren't covered by Uncle Sam, our employers are required by the government to provide this benefit ... and policies may not be cost effective for some employees. The payment system is inefficient and bureaucracy heavy, thanks in part to the resources needed to ensure and document compliance with government regulations. And, finally, for those who are "uninsured", either by choice or because they can't afford it ... the government actively and aggressively courts these people to accept government "help".

To my way of thinking, the cost of a service is directly, and negatively, influenced by the degree of government control. Folks, I think we have already gotten knee deep into socialized medicine ... it's just incomplete and somewhat covert. We don't need the government to fix the problem ... they ARE the problem, yet again!

The doctors and dentists our family visits are all older people and are glad they will not be around to see the end result, which they believe will be nationalized medicine. Virtually all of them believe that quality of care has declined and that this deterioration is escalating. People who might have once considered medical professions are turning away - the expense, the hassle, and the future of the field are not appealing. Schools apply affirmative action in their admissions screenings, so some highly qualified applicants are rejected in order to meet quotas. I believe in the coming years, we will experience qualified labor shortages and will see an influx of foreign born-and-trained doctors and nurses ... and that isn't a good thing. Not saying an individual foreigner can't be intelligent and skilled ... just that overall care will worsen.

Neither candidate is mentioning health care right now ... but it's a looming issue. I'd like to see even one person come up with a proposal for weaning many people off of government-paid care and shifting health insurance from an employer provided "benefit" to a personal, consumer driven commodity.

For all of our politicians' talk of "change" on one side and "reform" on the other, this isn't going to happen, I don't think. Not without a firm tickle in the ribs from a pitchfork ...

PeggyU......

Thank`s for jumping in.....when I venture forth to slay DanS the liberal dragon with the singing sword of truth, help or a vote of confidence is always welcome.

Health Care.......Yes! you are indeed right, when I was 15/20 years old & subject to repeated visits to the ER for sprain`s , breaks, myriad cuts & bruises......Health Care was cheap ,just about everybody had some,ER visit`s were allowed & not subject to co-pay`s. A semi private Hospital room was $27.00 & a private room was $42.00.That just about covers the cost of an aspirin today.

Then the Liberal Socialists in Washington got into the act to solve a problem which did not exist.....Today the only people with comparable Health Care coverage are Government Staffer`s, those who work in industries with old line union contract`s. Education professional`s & those on welfare who receive a free Medical Care card for first dollar coverage.

We who work & pay for Health Care are stuck with the bill for all those who do not& cannot get the coverage they get free at any price. Thank you very much.....Democrat`s!

health care...where to start on health care.
the doctors used to abuse the insurance companies when things were cheaper. the insurance companies revolted and started laying out guidelines.
and as is the case in most instances, once they found out they could they took it to extremes.
you have medicare/medicaide which pays very little
you have insurance companies which barter their services for the "best deal"
you have those with no insurance who just get screwed and have to pay the inflated price
ie: the bill is for 40,000 dollars. medicare pays about 10,000 if your lucky. insurance companies will pay about 20,000 and the poor smuck with no insurance will pay the whole 40,000 (or not pay at all.)
Do you get mad at hospitals for charging so much for so little?

when you go to a hospital there are money making areas and then places where you lose money. The hospital has to balance these out. BUT now you have people who know what parts of the hospital make the profits and quess what? now you see free standing MRI and Xray companies starting up. you have outpatient surgery centers opening up. free standing chemo centers and of course the "doc in the box emergency centers" opening up.
The hospitals have to take all but not the free standings. they can pick and choose who pays the most. plus they don't have the overhead of the money losing entities whch the hosptial has.

So now you have the hospitals having to raise their prices to cover the loss taken from the "free standings" and since they have to raise their prices...quess what? the free standings get to raise their prices too.
vicious circle? you betcha

now insurance companies...they want their profit too. so who do they want and who gets the best rates? well they don't want you if your over 40 because that's when the expensive regular things kick in. so if you have a company and the majority of people are young folks then you get a better deal. If you have a large older population in your company, your deal won't be as good.
you want to make an impact on an insurance company you better be in the 20-30 age range because that is the group of people they care about. in fact when there was a revolt in CA 10 to 15 years ago over giving birth and hospital stay time and it was the only time I saw an insurance company back down.
why do they get to control who you go to? because that's who they have made the deals with.
phewwwww. time to quit.

For health care, you should all move to Canada. Socialized Health is great...In 3 months,here in Ontario, all immigrants get a Health Card. The women can hurry up and get pregnant to have a free delivery and then, they can bring Old Ma and Old Pa to take care of the child. Of course, one of them will need expensive surgery they couldn't afford in their country. Who pays? We do, the people who've paid taxes all their lives. My son, who is highly taxed as an unmarried contributor, is fond of saying that, although he's never had the pleasure of birthing a child, he has paid for thousands of babies of all nationalities to be born Canadians!!!!!

Of course our waiting lists, for any procedure, are horrendous. So, if we have money, we go to USA. We still pay taxes in Canada, but the Government will not reimburse us for the excellent American care we receive. It's not cheap to be treated in your country. But it's worth it.

You know something? We're so used to the system that we say nothing. Now and again the government cancels a procedure from the free list (like Physiotherapy) because too many freeloaders glut the facilities. So the people who really need it have to pay. I didn't mind when it happened to me this year. At least, in the waiting room, I was with "real" patients...not people faking an injury to get time off work. I just feel sorry for long-time old Canadians who can't afford it.

I could say more. Is there a better way? As a whole, people live longer and get better care. Maybe it's the right thing to do to welcome in our midst immigrants who are less fortunate than we are, and to share what we have. The only time I truly get mad is when those people complain about the care they receive and criticize Canada. I can be violent, and could send them to ER for real injuries!!!!!!

Dee......

As I pointed out PRIOR to the Government intervention, this issue was not even on the horizon.....but Government has a way of making problem`s when there isn`t any.

Here`s an example of Health Care gone wrong.....

Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas Texas
Here is a famous institution for a number of reasons,Kennedy , Oswald & Ruby all died there.

On the flip side they also have the second busiest maternity ward in the country,some 16,000 per year or about 44 per day.
A recent patient survey showed 70% of the women who gave birth there in the first 3 months of 2006 were illegal immigrant` That is 11,600 anchor babies each year just in Dallas.

The hospital spent 71 million dollars delivering these babies in 2004 but ended the year with an 8 million dollar surplus as Medicare paid 34.5 million, Dallas County taxpayer`s paid 31.3 million & the Fed`s kicked in another 9.5 million.

The average patient in Parkland`s maternity ward is 25, married,giving birth to her second child & is an illegal immigrant.

By law pregnant women cannot be denied medical care base on their immigration status or ability to pay.Fine but that doesn`t mean they shoud recieve better care than everyday American Citizen`s ...but they do.Parkland has 9 prenatal care clinics...that is correct 9!

The Dallas Morning News followed the story of a hispanic woman who was having her third child at Parkland. The first two were free but the hospital wanted $10.00 per visit & $100.00 for the delivery for the third.She was unsure if she could come up wit the money but it did not matter because the hospital could not refuse her.[Why even bother to ask]

How long has this been going on...Another woman was herself born there in 1986 , her mother was an illegal immigrant. Now she is having her child there as well.

These women receive free prenatal care including,medication`s,nutrition,birthing & childcare classes,car seat`s,bottles, diaper`s & formula.

To be fair most of this is available to American women who are low-income but the Red Tape is insurmountable.

Because these women are illegal immigrant`s ,they do not have to provide any legitimate identification or source of income.An American would have to provide their SS # which would reveal their income but illegals only need to claim to be poor & the hospital must take their word for it.

American citizen`s who make less then $40,000 per year are offered indigent care but must prove they did not refuse health care at their current job. Free care for American`s is not so easy.

There were some 140 American women who received about 4 million in free care but were deemed to not be eligible because they lived outside of Dallas County...they are being sued, Illegals get everything for free but US citizens are being sued!

To really piss you off ,the illegals are upset because the hospital staff is not speaking Spanish, One AP story tells of a woman who is upset because she had to act as a translator for the staff to a patient. This was apparently a great injustice to her.
To resolve this Parkland Hospital is now offering incentives[extra pay] for applicant`s who speak Spanish & have revised the Educational curriculum at the University of Texas Southwestern to include required Spanish language studies. No other school in the country boasts such a multi-cultural requirement.

Remember this is but one hospital in Dallas.....how many other`s are in the same boat particulary in the South West.

This information is courtesy of my Sister a retired nurse & can be verified at Snopes.com

Are the officers of Fan and Fred going to be prosecuted under Sarbanes-Oxley for signing off on financial statements that hid losses? And what ever happened to the private mortgage insurance requirement if borrowers had less than 20% for a down payment? Is PMI paying off on any of these loans? I haven't heard any mention of this.

Dee: I think the point at which consumers (patients) lost oversight of their bills is when the shit started to roll. At one point in time, people purchased their own private insurance to cover the more costly and catastrophic health events - not routine expenses. Or they participated in pre-paid plans. To a degree, hospitals and physicians practiced wealth redistribution by charging customers differently, based on their ability to pay.

When businesses began to offer health benefits (as a means to circumvent government imposed wage regulations and to attract workers) the consumer was removed from much of the process, and the inevitable abuses cropped up. [One advantage of consumer-managed flexible spending accounts is that you are required to submit an itemized bill for reimbursement. This means you have to look at the bill and are more likely to catch billing errors and padded statements. You are also more likely to question the necessity of some procedures and curtail your spending, since you are paying for it with your own dollars (not that insurance premiums aren't paid with your money as well ... however, there is a mental disconnect that occurs when the process goes unseen).]

People who are on government subsidized plans really do view their insurance as free money, and the ones I know who use it do feel entitled to it rather than grateful for it. Do you think they scrutinize their bills (if they see them at all) or give a rip about keeping down the cost? Most of them only become engaged when they think they've been shortchanged in some way.

Anyway, here's an article on the evolution of health care insurance in the United States. Technical advances in medicine and desire for universal access to cutting edge treatments do play a part in the escalating cost. It is also an issue that is complicated by the behavior of greedy self-interest groups, and which has been completely FUBARed by the government. I can't help but feel that the mortgage mess is a younger sibling to this one. The government decides everyone should have something and inserts itself to ensure that this happens ... and screws it up for everyone (including those it aims to help) in the process! In both environments accountability (and therefore cost containment) is much better managed by smaller private entities who more directly and immediately bear the brunt of bad business decisions. And most people, including the destitute, will find a way on their own if they are sufficiently motivated and unimpeded by government assistance.

Peggy U ......

Excellent , well stated...far better then my post this AM as I only made an issue for greed & illegal`s.

Thank`s big time & I hope Dee is satisfied with your response.

NancyB - Glad you asked. AIG is an insurance company and I think part of their financial problems are due to covering PMI. I have an acquaintance in commercial real estate and he said over 6 months ago that insurance companies were gonna take a hit with all of the mortgage defaults.

Thank you Peggy. I do understand what you are trying to say.
Contrary to the impression I seem to have given out so far I am not in favor of the welfare nation that we have now become.
I try not to comment to much in these forums because I am not that articulate. And I admit it.
To give a slight nod to Dudley, I do agree with you on immigration and have seen more abuse than just the ones from Mexican citizens. There are many countries residents who come here and get on our payroll.
I have lived in CA and Texas and know the staggering amounts expended for illegals and I am appalled by it.
I also agree that there are many getting free health care in this country who have no concept of the cost.
In this day and age to go to an emergency room with a sore throat is an abomination, and yet is s done because it's more convenient for those who don't have to pay. I know this as I have a family member who plays the system and plays it well. (before you make another erroneous judgment about me I also have family members in the upper echelon of this system as well)
I am also for people paying their own way, with one exception. And this exception is exploited by the people who play the system. That exception being children.
I can honestly say I have not come up with a remedy to save the children that does not include saving the parent also. Which I know in reality doesn’t work as the parents take and leave many children still with nothing.
I am also appalled by the misuse of our disability system as I have seen how easily that can be manipulated. I agree with our host on that one but explain that to your unions . Explain that to the elected official out west who is on disability and yet still draws a salary as an elected official. Do you think he will vote to change the rules?
And in some respects I am a socialist, in others a communist and even others a democrat and low and behold in others I am a republican. That is what is called and independent these days, I believe.
I have little faith in the government that we have to fix our problems effectively but I still try to have faith in the people and hope that someday they will see that they have to be accountable for what they have allowed to happen in this country. That they will one day say to themselves it is time now to let our voices be heard and WE must make them fix what they have broken.
I simple solution for the medical problems would be different levels of medical care for different prices. You get what you pay for and you earn what you pay for. To simple? Not really just not democratic enough for some folks.
Solution for illegals? Make the laws that say people born of illegals have no rights here but only of the rights of where the parents came from. No more free rides. Hard hearted and more republican like?
Welfare, you bet I am for putting a lot of those people back to work, no more free rides. But then again what do I do with the exceptions. I will still have to ponder that one.
Greed? There comes a time when folks have to stand up for themselves and say enough is enough and start boycotting. And for your information I haven’t been to a non free ballgame or concert in many years as a stand against overpayment of the “stars” of these things. There are a lot of other things to do out there that don’t cost an arm a leg. I have scaled down my driving and bought a more economical car. I have been looking at electric cars but will have to admit I am still looking. Is it because I am green? Not really, I just don’t think I should support what (sorry Dudley) I think is just plain greed.
I think I was right with my first thoughts on this forum and I think you all are nice people. So for now I will go back to being silent. Until I see something totally outlandish like trying to blame all the ills of the nation on someone else and not accepting the responsibility you (we) all had in allowing it to happen.
*had to write this one up on MS with spell check and then cut and paste it on to here :)

Dee .......

You have very good instincts , you belong on this blog making your points known. Independant ...So What!

For what it is worth I believe in workfare, I believe all able bodied people should be employed at some thing useful to society in return for the welfare recieved. Yes, there are exceptions for age, health & special circumstance..these people should be assisted with whatever is required. I would support a new government sponsered CCC program to put the able bodied to work, I have posted many times as to the belief it might instill some pride to people who have been a kept society for all their lives.

I am a strict constitutionalist in that this unique document is what makes us different then the rest of the world. To change it for satisfying a leftwing position only hasten`s our downfall. This is the fight which I will maintain until my time on earth is finished.

Anyway stay on board & make your ideas know. We appreciate your participation.

Dee: I hope you didn't think I was making any conclusions about who you were! To be honest, it didn't even occur to me. Please don't let me deter you from expressing an opposing view and from smacking me if you feel like it. I can take it.;) My rant reaction here was triggered by the topic of government intrusion into areas of private interest. I think maybe you've seen how we react to Teresa, and that may be a little disconcerting. The issue with Teresa is this: she has yet to bring a reasoned argument to the table or provide anything thought provoking. She doesn't even try! I don't know why she bothers.

Health care is a hot button issue for me, because our politicians either tiptoe around it or attempt to oversimplify it and offer government as the solution, when in reality it is hugely the culprit. In this instance, there's ample blame to go around, so nobody should feel slighted because he didn't get his share!

And I truly believe we should resist the urge to embrace nationalized medicine and instead each as individuals shoulder more responsibility for our our own health care management and costs. That means becoming involved, informed, and proactive consumers of services ... not passive pawns of the state. Does the government still have an obligation to help those who truly can't help themselves? Yes, I think so, since "we" are, through representation, supposed to be the government and we should have the moral strength to fulfill this responsibility. However, we should also have the power to determine how far that obligation extends and to whom (for example, American citizens as opposed to illegal immigrants). We've had that taken from us.

NancyB - helluva post. Congress loves to be sanctimonious and watch heads roll.....as long as its not their own. I think that in January, after the business of getting reelected is done, they will be get busy with it.

Further, its not PC to say it (so I say it here). look for the AIG thing to be a boon to the treasury. Basically they are loaning 85B to AIG at 11.3%. It is costing them a bit over 3% (tbills) to do it. Thats a tidy profit. AIG has assets, just not liquid ones. They will be moving quickly to shed this debt.

Hank Paulson is a statesman. Don't doubt it, regardless of what Barney Frank rants on about.

I do so wish that I could print all those intelligent comments. I'm learning so much. I would like to ponder the different viewpoints quietly and slowly. I'm so glad that I discovered this blog and encouraged my friends in Texas to read it. It can be very distressing to reach the twilight of your life and to feel that you might be the only ones to see your country in danger of losing its balance with nobody there to stop the fall. What's important, what matters is that you care. As long as you do, I'm not worried about you.

I see USA as strong, and the core, the centre as solid. I see USA as infinitely adaptable to any situation. Problems? Plenty but wasn't it always the case? Who settled those problems? Who survived the crises? The fittest. The weak will disappear, the strong will remain. It's the law of nature.

The best of you will always be there to rebuild what has been broken. It's in you. You were not born to be pampered but to open new horizons. That's why your country is different than all the other countries. No government could stop the Real Americans from standing tall and independant. If it tries, you will rebel. That would not be the first time... You will be pushed just so far. And then you will recreate yourselves. The United States of America have a unique story. One State at a time, then all States together. Your spirit cannot be broken. You cannot be bought. You should hear yourselves talk. I pity anybody who would want to remodel the core of your country and turn Real Americans into gelatinous citizens. Never! You're the Land of the Free, the Home of the Brave...You're the envy of the world. You're also its hope. I'm so proud to know you.

You're the Land of the Free, the Home of the Brave...You're the envy of the world. You're also its hope. I'm so proud to know you.

Was it good for you ?
Hope you didn't ruin your chair...

Not to worry, Prosper! She keeps plastic covers on the furniture in case the French stop by.

You mean she would pee everywhere because of emotion, being visited by grand-grand-grand-grand-nephews?
Come on PeggyU!! She may have known Joan of Arc personnaly, she's still partially water-tight!

Nancy, I believe they are exempt from S&O.
Unless things have changed from the last go around they had.
It was said then that were not under the SEC but under the dept of housing, so they don't even have to give out statements. They supposedely do so "voluntarily"
On the PMI thing, I thought it was insurance for the loan but in recent readings have figured out that it only covers the part of the loan over 80%, curious huh?
No one explained that to me when I had it.
Another curious thing to ponder on is peoples attitudes about buying a house. I discovered it when we moved from the middle of the country to CA. There is a big diffrence in pricing on houses from one place to the other and a big difference in attitudes on buying. We rented for the first year out there and when we decided to buy this was the advice we were given: put the least down on the house that you can, don't worry about earthquake insurance and if something happens just walk away. Think this advise was given to us by "the regular folk?" nope, by the mortgage broker. shocked? we were.
Our midwestern values wouldn't let us do this but that is the mentality of a lot of folks out there in this day and age.
People talk about the housing market and blame the minorities and poor folks for the crisis we are now in but it isn't them that brought us to the point we are now at, at least in my mind. when they were showing the tales of woe about these people it was your upper middle class folks who were trying to "keep up with the Jones" who were at fault and the young who seem to have the same mentality as my advisor in CA.
Why even my mom, who is in her 80's said this day was coming.....and she said it over 5 years ago.

Prosper.....

I have alway`s said you were a pretty good dude even if you somewhat anti-American. Well I have changed my viewpoint with your recent action`s.

You are an Asshole! It does not matter you are French & leftwing..........^You are an Asshole!

Dee....good points again.....My parents instilled in me the idea one should live within ones means & have a nest egg for hard times. Today people live way beyond their means from paycheck to paycheck, so far in debt they will never pay back all they owe. The reality is they are still renting.

I have a small business which I built up a piece of machinery at a time, always within my capacity to pay over the last 30 years..I have a Triple-A Credit rating & could heat a small house on the Credit Card offers received daily in the mail.I am chided quite often by business associate`s for being so conservative.....They say I should borrow so much money they would never dare to foreclose on me. Just pay back the minimum & live the high life on the rest.Well, I just cannot do that, I have to be somewhat proud of the face staring back at me when I shave in the morning..

Yeah, a lot of us peons saw this coming years ago - - lack of proper underwriting, etc. Hell, I'm not an underwriter but even I was scratching my head. "Stated" income, "stated" assets? WTF?
Prudent u/w being chucked out the window was one of the early indicators of this mess. It's just a part of it, of course.
Fred and Fan were given a mandate by Congress to make the quotas of "affordable" mortgages; and "creative" financing became the norm.
Good article here, BTW. Dems were a major roadblock.

(P.S. I haven't read through all of the comments on this post, but see that lots of good points have been made here.)

Sorry dudley, was I politically incorrect?

Prosper.....

No , Politically incorrect is fine ...even encouraged. I kind of felt you were being a bit harsh with Claudia. Personal observation,that`s all! Maybe I just over-reacted.

On second thought....My bad ,Please accept my apology.

Checking through my email, someone advised me about Mark Levin's Friday show (I was in Ireland at the time, with very little access to info from the homefront).
His analysis is spot on.
http://marklevinshow.com
Click on the above link, scroll down to "Audio Rewind" and click on September 19, 2008. Listen to as much of the show as time permits (it's just over an hour, but his monologue is over after about 40 mins. after which he starts taking calls). If, after listening, folks still don't understand how we got where we are, they're in denial or have lost the ability to think rationally. We certainly don't want facts to get in the way.

Wow- this is a great discussion. The fact that we don't have enough money to fund x, y, and z - but we do have 700 billion laying around to use with barely a congressional hearing is telling.

The bottom line is that we will have much higher taxes from all of this. Unless you don't want things like police and roads.

Until the GOP remembers what it means to "conserve" though, they are in a world of hurt. They can't keep spending money like this and maintain any sort of credibility. The Democrats need to grow balls and remember their roots again.

You guys who criticize the Dem controlled congress- you are right...but the GOP did the EXACT same thing to them. DeLay and Co. made Pelosi look like an amateur when it comes to "silencing" as you call it.

Frankly, the electorate needs to say "fuck 'em all" and vote 3rd party.

I, for one, would be happy if one of these two candidates actually leveled with the American public. They won't. But we need our leaders to actually lead and not supplicate. That means being clear to the American people that sacrifices will need to be made if there is to be anything resembling a decent future...

Dudley1 -

Not to worry. I can stand the attack. Remember Quebec. Tough survivors.

I do get over lyrical, at times, about your National Anthem, what America has achieved in 200 years, and the unique character of your country. I got carried away reading the serious and perceptive appraisal of the present situation, and the brilliant suggestions that many of you are offering. You're the best and most honest citizens a country can have. This thread is worth keeping.

That's why I love ya, Claudia! It's wonderful to see support of the USA outside our country :-)

Incidentally, we met some nice folks from Canada our last day in Ireland (Limerick). It was their first time there, and our second time in 8 years. So much has changed in that relatively brief time (Eire is prospering like gangbusters!), but we could at least easily point them to O'Connell Street partly cuz the statue was still there :)

Heh heh heh heh ... FBI is conducting Fannie Mae investigation. Sweet!

Jo - I agree with you that the republican party has abandoned conservatism. There is hope though with some in the party. we need more Jeb Hensarlings and less Dennis Hasterts.

I don't want to be accused of apologizing for the bailout but at least on paper it is not 700B gone down the tubes. The treasury will hold reverse auctions in this proposal. In an auction there is one seller and many bidders. this has many sellers and one bidder, the treasury. If a bank wants to unload their bad loans then they have to be sell them to the treasury at a better price then the next bank. In theory that means that a 150k piece of property with a $185k loan out against it (upside down you see) might get sold for 160k. That would be a 160k gross expense out of the 700B, but it is reasonable that the property could be sold the next day for 140k (10k below current market value). so the net expense to the treasury is 20k.

Now that said....2 things....1. I don't like this either. 2. who is running the treasury is very very very important. If you want some dipshit like Charley Rangel, William Jefferson, or Donna Shalala then vote for the halfrican sock puppet. If you want someone like Hank Paulson, then vote for McCain.

Its fun to say "the big guy is getting off scott free and the little guy is getting soaked". its just not that black and white. a lot of big guys have lost a helluva lot of money and they should. We need to be more judicious consumers of 24 hour news and actually think this stuff through...........or we can just blame bush and vote for changey change.

Really Dumb American`s.......

Let`s see here.....This banking/mortgage mess was concieved & perpetrated by Democrat`s who are Liberal Socialist`s, the main player`s [Culprit`s]are Democratic Liberal Socialist`s. Obama is a Liberal Socialist Democrat who was launched into public life thru loan` s & donation`s from the main player`s. He has at least two of these main players on his staff.

According to today`s polls .....Guess who is getting a post crisis bounce? The one who asked for oversight & investigation [McCain] or the one with dirty hand`s [Obama] who took money & hired the people responsible for the mess for his staff.

Just when you thought people could not get any dumber ....they give Obama the Boost.

Think bipartisan Dudley, when the repubs wanted the changes they weren't willing to comprimise on any of their stands. the Dems wanted changes too but not as radical and they wouldn't compromise. ergo neither got what they wanted. and we got nothing.
It's time they stopped voting party and started voting what's best for us. it's time they started working together.
you have to admit in your business you see all the things you want to do and the way you want it to happen....hopefully you can accomplish that...but sometimes you have to comprimise at times to reach the one true goal. now don't you?
Why should the government be any different?
instead of playing the blame game. go back to the drawing board and take some of the old issues that were good and work out a way to use them now..but maybe compromising on a workable solution and having neither parties take credit.
crazy crap but then again it just might work.
Crazy thing to say but that is what O said he wanted. people working together to reach a common goal. for that I like him............I still think he wants to spend to much and am afraid on that mark...but then I am afraid of mcain too
third party? haven't seen anyone there I would vote for either
so what's a poor smuck like me to do?
will it come down to who scares me the least?
That is a very sad state of affairs.
we need a new party I am afraid, one that takes the best of what each party used to be and combines it into a working unit...one that will give a little and take a little. One that wants governemt to not be so controling but has the compassion to step in when things get a little rough.
one that right now says we have to fix us before we can fix the rest of the world and lead by example, not necessarily by force.
(no don't get me wrong again sometimes I admit force is necessary but right now and at this time I think we need to set that issue aside and pick that the battles we face here at home as the most important of all)

Dee.......

First, Glad to see you are staying around. As to compromise.....This is how Government was once practiced in this country but the core principles were viewed as inviolate by both party`s.

A review of the action`s & position`s for both major party`s clearly shows the Democrat`s approach is to keep moving the goalpost or dividing line....This is called Creeping Socialism or the old
Communist approach to push until you find resistance , stop for a while then push again.

Unless one stop`s to think, review what freedoms or positions have been taken away or altered & by who,they are not in a position to know the truth & cannot understand what has happened to how things used to be done.

As for Obama....he say`s many thing`s, but most is empty rhetoric as he as President would not have any input or control. An example is "I`ll put more & better teacher`s in our schools" Unless the Government nationalize`s the Public School School system`s ...local School district`s hire & teacher`s & set curriculum requirements not the Federal Government.Like I said ...sound`s good but cannot & should not be done.

What is the Answer? In my opinion....First, A requirement to vote, Second, A overhaul of our voting system to assure the same procedure is followed in all states on the same day. Third, Require all school`s who accept Federal assistance in any form to teach civic`s,constitutional study including the Bill of Right`s.I think this represent`s a good start.

My opinion`s , my idea`s but everybody has their own I guess, but mine are based on what the intent of our founding father`s created happen`s to be & what made this country the best society to have ever come into existance on this planet. It is not an accident so many from so many other countries want to immigrate here.

Dee and Dudley1: Both good points. After reading Michelle Malkin's column today, I am more discouraged than ever about our election options. I wish, you know, we could scrap both tickets and start over again. In fact, I wish we could redirect one of those hurricanes to Washington and give it a good cleaning. As Dee said, "What's a poor smuck like me to do?"

Peggy, what a good one! Level 5 I think would do it. after all, it will be combating all the hot air coming out of Washington.....thinks that's why they never had one up there befor?
Dudley, you are right empty rhetoric unless we make them accountable...we dudley, you and me and maybe even Peggy.
Doesn't Mcain's lobbyist thing scare the pewaddle out of you? it does me. I don't think I can trust him not to think more about what he gets out of it than what you and I get out of it. I am worried about his choice for VP and she scares me more than bidden does.
I believe more in the republican principles but not in the people they have up there today.

you see as independent I read up on what both sides are saying and have to come up with a hunch of what the truth might actually be for both sides. both sides have their zealots and both sides are compromised of some rude and obnocious creatures and I have try and weed out those people and find the true core.

The first person to convince me that they want to work with the congress to turn things around (that means fiscal responsibilty because you can't have that if you don't do all the rest of the stuff we talked about) will get my vote...does he have power as president to actually do anything but veto...laws and rules..no. But he does have the power to help guide the congress into going OUR way. Or at least I thought that was what one of his jobs was. and in return he should also be guided by the legislature so that they are working in some sort of harmony.

Here's one more suggestion for this new congress I have, make a bill that works and quit tacking onto it the crap that can't get passed on it's own. There are several very good bills by both parties that couldn't get passed because someone tacked on something others couldn't vote for.

Don't deny it Dudley, you know it happens all the time. Then the opposition comes out and says "the so and so's are bad because they won't pass this bill" They don't tell you it was because someone tacked some trash that had nothing to do with the origional bill.

Both sides do it and its just plain wrong.

we need to get back to the balance of things again where we have a good split in the congress of both repubs and democtrats so just one side can't go crazy and they have to get together.

PS on that lobbyist thing, I know that that there has to be some sort of it going on but not the way it is at the present time. They are like vultures out there and it's our carcusses they are after.

As the outsider, next door, I examine both sides thoroughly. I've done that for years. We depend on USA to be strong and to defend, not only their country, but the free world. The Americans might not like it. But isn't it the duty of the most powerful country to safeguard freedom?

We've always been in danger when you have a Democratic President. Roosevelt (although he helped Churchill a lot) waited till the attack on Pearl Harbor to enter WW2 actively. Thank God, Truman was there to take over. I always see him as a strong, apolitical man, in Emergency. JFK was a walking disaster in Foreign Affairs (with Cuba and Vietnam). LBJ didn't have a clue. President Carter was (is still) stupidly hypnotized by the Middle East. Clinton was blinded by his tawdry lifestyle and fail to see 9/11 being prepared right under his nose.

At this time, I believe that terrorism is a greater danger than all the problems you have within. If terrorists attack your country, you're not going to have time to worry about which party is less corrupt. What you will need is the President who can handle the crisis best. You will need someone who is not naive about the Middle East, and not afraid to make unpopular decisions.

I trust McCain for this job, not a naive Obama who wishes to make "nice." I read the speech that Palin was to deliver at a meeting which was organised to protest Iran's policies. The meeting was cancelled for security reason. The speech is powerful, clear and states a strong USA position. She has what it takes to confront the enemy.

It's frustrating that I cannot vote in your election. If I could, I certainly would not vote for the candidates which Europe and the Middle East would wish to see at the head of my country.
This is not a popularity contest. I would believe McCain and Palin's promise to change Washington. I would speak up and express all my concerns to them when they're elected.

Bravo, Claudia. Couldn't agree more.

And right on, Dee.
We've desperately needed the line-item veto back, in my opinion.

Actually this thread should be sent to McCain's Election Headquarters NOW. This is not just one disgruntled person. There are many different American voices here, expressing deep concern about what's happening to their government, and offering valid suggestions for a much needed rebirth.

I wish you the best, with all my heart.

SEVENHUNDREDBILLIONDOLLARS - about $2,300.00 per person and we have to do it or the whole damned country will collapse. After watching this for day after day, I think back to a day in the summer of 2005. AM radio was crammed with mortgage offers, NINJA loans to be had.

My wife was hot to move out of our 2 bedroom 1 bath 1 garage (2/1/1) home here in south Florida. She wanted a 3/2/2 with a pool.

I explained how much the true cost of that 3/2/2 would be. She didn't believe it so I took her to sit down with a mortgage broker and had him prepare a good faith estimate for a 400k home.

After that, no more talk of upgrading.

We make nearly 100k between us. We have sense enough to live within our means.

So fuck 'em.

Lied about your income to get a loan, FU.
Bought bad mortgage paper, FU.
Bought too much house, FU.
Your broker put you in an REIT, FU.
ETC...ETC....ETC...

OWN your decisions people!

Not one red cent to these asses. Depression???
Bring it on.

Now, let's see some of these morons do the perp walk for the laws they broke. (yes, it is illegal to lie on a mortgage app.)

Claudia, is Canada as foolish as the U.S.?

I've heard Vancouver, B.C. is nice.

Dee........

Let me describe myself a bit.... I have been active in voting 46 years & missed only one minor local election. I have been following politics National, State, Local & International for 50+ years.

I have been involved with Industry, Engineering & Manufacturing all of my adult life. Prior to early forced retirement [Company Buyout] I spent 20 year`s as a Senior Manufacturing Engineer responsible for all tooling operation`s & Capital Acquisitions for a multi -million dollar medical equipment manufacturing company. I now own my own small company which has been successful.

I was primarily responsible for the selection, justification , purchase , installation ,startup & verification of return on investment of New Machinery, Systems & Technology. My tooling budget`s were in excess of 2 million dollars per year & my Capital budget was about 5 million per year.

To perform at the level of responsibilty vested with me, it was essential my investigations resulted with the correct choices made for application to the manufacturing requirement, suited engineering development with an installation program which was in accordance to ongoing operations with minimal interferance & provided the return on investment calculated. My contribution to the bottom line of the corporation was always in excess of projection & exceeded ROI calculation`s.

In performance of these tasks , I by neccessity had to be very analytical,know what the requirement was & to thoroughly evaluate the proposed investment to assure it matched the need.

How does this match up with politics & candidate`s....I bring those very same skills which served me so well in my business career to evaluate candidates as to how well they will reflect the intent of what our constitution mandates.I am referring to National politics here. First, will they respect,honor & defend the Constitution. Second, will they work for the benefit of we the people, Third, will they be honest & Fourth, can we trust them.

In reviewing what they say & have done previously most of the candidates can be readily sorted out.
I can honestly say, in my life time I can only point to two politicians who I felt were of impeccable honesty. The biggest problem today is to find candidates who value what this Nation stands for, will honor the Constitution & be true to what our forefather`s intended.

I can agree with you for disgust with many of our elected representation with their petty antics, pet projects or outright greed. It crosses party lines ,were I to be able to apply my analytical skills to a review of all of our elected Representation , the Supreme Court & to weed out those who were deficient, I doubt I would have enought left to field two Baseball Teams.

So as poorly as I feel for the honesty of & the lack of trust or confidance for most of these bottom feeders in Washington DC....I still look for the best I can find.In this election, I cannot hope to solve all which are so apparent in Washington but we must start somewhere.

As I have stated, a review for the past history of Obama, his accomplishments, his associates, his friends ,those of his inner circle of advisor`s & what he has said shows conclusively for him to be an empty suit devoid of value who does not believe in what our Constitution or Bill of rights says or means. He will move to change our form of government & our society. He is a glib talker when using a teleprompter, but is lacking for any real ability to lead. Yes I admit he speaks very well but my professional training to investigate & verify find`s him to be unacceptable & perhap`s dangerous if we put in a situation where he had both the Congress & Senate allied with him by party & political affiliation.He is a man I just cannot trust.

What about his opposition? In truth I am not very enthusiastic with John McCain but consider him to be marginally acceptable. He will defend this country if neccessary & I find him to be for the most part honest & loyal to this Nation.I feel a sense of trust for him.

As to Vice Presidential candidates...again look at Biden`s past history, A man who plagerized the life story of another man , & was kicked out of a Presidential Campaign against Dukakis because of this fact.Look also at his many mistakes down thru the year`s & legislative record of non-achievement.He is another I have no trust for.

Sarah Palin, my first choice was Mitt Romney but I find her to be trustworthy with a good record in Alaska & wildly popular there for what she has done....I think she is a coming star & can grow into the job quickly.

As I said in a previous post my ideas or thoughts must match the constitutional intent .....I feel they do.

Brad -

Canadians are not as financially adventurous and ambitious as Americans. At the moment, it seems to be a good thing. In the long run, it's a bit sad. We're politically lowkey. We're having an election presently and nobody is very interested and excited. We'll probably give a majority government to our Conservative Prime Minister. But we had a liberal government for a long time. We've been socialized to death.

Vancouver is beautiful. Mild climate. Lots of drugs, lots of rich Chinese from Hong Kong (since China took it over).

If USA suffers, we get the aftermath. So you would not be entirely free of American problems by moving there. Pass by Toronto to say hello! ;-)

Vancouver is beautiful. Mild climate. Lots of drugs, lots of rich Chinese from Hong Kong (since China took it over).

I would second that! Hongcouver is indeed lovely, especially in August/September. They have a fantastic aquarium there at Stanley Park. It is fairly liberal, though, like most large cities. How about Abbotsford? It is smaller, and easier to use the truck crossing to get back and forth to US (less traffic = less hassle). And, they have a great air show there each August.

Peggy, I read the Malkin article. I agree with her on some points. But I also see the problem when we talk of illegals. There are those like me who think they should be done away with, but there are those who encourage them. They may publicly say we need to fix them but in there heart of hearts they pray nothing gets done and do nothing to correct the problem. at least in my opinion. why? cheap labor. no unions.
small and medium sized companies who have a lot of scutt work that no one wants to do. and those who are legal won't do because the price isn't right or the job is gross. Remember the last time we had a rousing chant to do away with them and there were "raids," announced of course. some companies had to shut down because not enough employees showed up to work on the days when the feds came in. are these companies still in business? yep. because once the raids were done the employees came back. Do we permanetly shut down these companies? no we just keep looking the other way.
so what do we do about this?
In virginia there are people who contract with the state to keep the landscape looking wonderful. they pay people under the table, who are on welfare or are illegal, to do this at cheap rates.
Do we stop them? if so then who is going to make virginia look beautiful? and at what cost.
The point is this: there are always those out there who are going to go for the cheapest way to get things done, and there are always going to be people looking the other way so that it can be done and so they don't have to reach into their pockets.
It isn't right but it is the american way at the present time. and for as many con arguments about this you are also going to get the pros and the pros are those who are making money and have more power than the cons.
Dudley, impressive! I can't say that I am as...well rounded as you are. I am just a person who has worked all her life...well with the exception of a couple years. I married a guy who started at the bottom and worked his way up to become a vice president of a company. to do this we had to move all around the country...it was a national company. I have not voted in every election because I didn't think I was qualified to do so having (many years) just moved to that area and didn't know anyting about the local politics. The presidential and national arena was on track keeping a semi status quo in both the house and congress. Truth be told I have been apolitical for a long time. There were apalling moments along the way...Clinton era for me was not something the democrats should be proud of but ashamed of in my opinion. But the one thing it did was expose the moral decline in Washington. and put it in the limelight. Unfortunately now we are still dealing with the consequences of that.
I am digressing here I know.
The good republicans took over and we prayed they would do the job right....but what happened?
Dudley, I want to vote for a republican president to balance out what I think will be a democratic congress.
I want you to do something for me Dudley, I want you to go to a site called Mudflats and read up what is going on up there in Alaska...you don't have to read the comments cause believe me a lot of Dems have now found out about it and it has become a haven for dem nutjobs. But the guy who rights it has some serious issues and makes pretty good sense....my gosh he got me reading up on alaska laws and ethics.
here is another proposal...can I write you in for president? you could make Denny your VP. you two I could vote for....and if you think Denny isn't a good choice and want to go with the woman...how bout Peggy?....Then you see I wouldn't have a problem.
Claudia, I would've put you and Peggy as an altenative on the ticket but you live in canada!

PS I am origionally from the state of Illinois, the land of political corruption, so I know what I speak about when talking political corruption.
the best guy I know of from here was..and hope still is...a young guy out of Peoria who got elected right out of school.... And what a major statement that was...they wanted someone who hadn't been corrupted by politics!

that should be writes not rights....darn mind of mine just gets carried away at times...sorry warned you about that little problem I have.

Dee -
If Peggy is the V.P., I'm sure she'll bring me in the team as a Foreign Consultant. President Dudley1 would love une Québécoise around....

Keep coming, Dee, you're interesting when you're serious. And a lot of fun when your mood gets lighter...

when I was in vancouver I felt like I was in country.

Dee......

Denny would be a better choice for POTUS with Peggy for VICE POTUS.. I already been knighted by Lisakay to serve on her RoundTable...[Sir Dudley1].....Besides, I am holding out for Emperor.

Illegal Problem...No Problem....Round them up & ship them back home.Institute workfare to replace Welfare for all able bodied citizens currently riding the gravy train. No Work!NoPay! Welfare should only be for the truly needy or elderly.

The time is now to put deadbeat`s,slacker`s & freeloader`s to work.

The kept generation should be freed to be all they can be.If they want to be kept .....put them in a zoo.

I think the need for Illegal Immigrant`s would wither away fairly quickly if work was the only choice versus starving.